"Scuttlenet".... Your thoughts?

[PaulJ]

\"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

Snowleopard's proposal for a link-up on Saturday did not seem to happen for a variety of reasons, not least because 8104 Kc/s was already in use. However it was basically a good idea and set me thinking that maybe we could set up a "Scuttlenet" on a particular frequency (open for discussion) at a set time every day. This could be for general chat and news but could also prove very useful for some who are otherwise completely out of touch with loved ones for the duration of any long passage.

Many people use internet cafes when they are in port but in my own case, I know my ageing parents will be worried sick for the three weeks or so that we will be out of touch on the way to the Caribbean. It is my intention to set up a Sailmail account but the equipment is quite expensive considering the amount of use it will get and it is not without it's complications..... How much simpler it would be to be able to get on the SSB to someone with whom a pre-arrangement has been made and say "My position is XYZ, we are fine and estimating arrival on such and such a date..... Please ring a pre-arranged number and let them know we are still alive".

So the way it would work, would be that I would announce some time ahead on this forum (or maybe Kim could set up a seperate "Scuttlenet" forum) that I will be making a passage between certain dates and ask if there will be anybody, or maybe 2 or 3 people, in the UK who could take it in turns to listen in at a set time each day for just a few minutes to receive any messages. Obviously this would be a mutual self-help group so I would be doing the same for others until I set off.

There will be complications, the first that springs to mind is that most people's SSB is on the boat and they are not always on the boat at the same time every day but I am sure something could be worked out.....?

Many cruising nets seem to be on the 20mtr band, for example 14,303 seems to work pretty well for the UK Maritme Net for most people, most of the time, so my suggestion would be that we pick a frequency not too far from that and as a starting point I would suggest 1800 UK time.

Your thoughts and suggestions please.....?

Paul.

 

[forestay]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

Great idea. Especially for the liveaboard people.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

It's amazing how ideas develop when you are doing boring jobs on the boat! Forget my previous posting, how about this.....?

We set a frequency and time, I suggest 14,??? Kc/s and 1800 UK time and anybody who can, would tune in....... Kim would set up a separate "Scuttlenet" forum then any news of anybody which is picked up by any forum member would be posted on that forum as soon as possible afterwards. Then friends and relatives simply have to go to the forum for the latest news which ideally, would be updated every day, not by a particular person but by whoever had managed to pick up the message.

This system would avoid any commitment in time and phonecall cost from any particular person........ What do you think?

Paul.

 

[jerryat]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Hi Paul,

The idea is good in principle, but suspect the problem will be consistency. By that I mean that even with Nets like the UK Maritme Net, it is difficult to get a regular Net Controller. Herb (and until comparatively recently David Jones in the Caribbean) is the major exception - but look at the commitment!

IMHO, the UK Maritme Net is hopeless. I listened a few times wihile cruising, but packed in pretty quickly, as I wasn't interested that it was raining in the UK, or that someone or other was about to mow their lawn!! There is just such a lot of drivel. The problem is obvious - they will only talk to qualified Hams, and so very few people in the cruising fraternity talk to them!

The major problem I foresee, is what happens if someone DOESN'T call in for one reason or another, e.g. battery problems, heavy weather etc. I suspect your aging parents would be a lot more worried if they DIDN'T hear from no matter how much you impressed on them that you'd report if possible.

Please don't think I'm being dismissive, but the above problems are there, and need to be addressed as far as possible before setting up a Net upon which relatives and friends will tend to rely.

Just a few thoughts,

Cheers Jerry

 

[Bergman]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

I think its basically a good idea

But

First you need to decide if the net is for licensed amateurs or for marine SSB users.

That will allow you to choose a frequency to suit one or the other (but not both!)

Having done that you need to decide who the users of the net will be. Will it be "local" to UK - or Europe/Mediterranean - or US/West Indies - or Australia/NZ (mustn't forget the Cat!)

This will allow you to decide the best band and the best time to chose for suitable propogation.

Also worth noting that I may well have a good channel to a station in say USA, you similarly may have a good channel to him - but if we are both in UK almost certainly will not be able to receive each other.

Suggest the proposal needs a bit more thought.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Thanks for your reponses.

Jerry, I think consistency could be a problem to start with but I suspect that once word got round, more people would participate. I think that the great thing about this scheme is that it would not require long-term commitment from anybody. Once a few people started to use it I think (hope?) there would be enough people interested so that someone, and it would only need one, who has access to the net would be able to listen in for a few minutes on most evenings.

I only mentioned the UK Maritime Net as an example of a suitable frequency, ie. 14 megs. "Scuttlenet" would NOT be anything like the UKMN as there are plenty of other sources of weather info and as far as I know, UKMN will not post position reports on any web forums. This would simply be a way of letting anyone who wants to know, where you are and that all is well..... or not! There would not be endless chat, just a short, concise message.... Something like:- "At 1800UTC on 21/11/05, yacht Splasher was in position XXX. Good weather and all is well.... ". If there is a problem, maybe a short message as well.

Perhaps a way to improve consistency would be to involve an Amateur Radio Club..... In the hope of learning something about the mysterious art of radio I joined a local Radio Club who, as well as meeting on a weekday evening, also meet during the day twice a week at the Fort at Newhaven. They have a station there with a fantastic antenna on the top of the cliffs and I think these guys would jump at the chance to speak to boats in all sorts of different places. They are not sailors so I think that strengthens the case for keeping messages short and concise and possibly in a standardized form.

I take the point about it being more worrying if no messages are received but I guess that possibility has to be made clear before you leave.

Bergman, you said.....
"First you need to decide if the net is for licensed amateurs or for marine SSB users.

That will allow you to choose a frequency to suit one or the other (but not both!)"

In fact I think this could be a bonus in that I think we COULD nominate two frequencies and those who use Amateur Radio would use the system on the Ham frequency and Marine Band users would use the Marine frequency.... BOTH could post on Scuttlenet. But yes it would inevitably mean that we would need people on both frequencies at the UK or "inshore" end.

As for which areas would be covered, I think it should only be used by people on a long passage who would not be able to use internet cafes or mobile phones for several days, so I don't think those cruising UK or near European waters would need to use Scuttlenet, though of course a lot of the receiving stations would be in the UK. Initially I think it would mainly be used by those crossing Biscay, on down to the Canaries and then across to the Caribbean. These are the main routes on which people will be out of internet or Mobile phone range for extended periods. I have yet to contact anyone in the Pacific or Indian Oceans so I really couldn't comment on suitable times and frequencies for these areas.... Maybe people in these areas could set up their own schedules but still post on Scuttlenet. As it is though, I think 14 megs at 1800 UK would cover most of the Atlantic cruising routes and hopefully it would grow from there. As for the Med, I don't think most people are out of contact for long enough to make it necessary.... however I think that freq/time would be ok for the Med too.

I take your point about not being able to speak to other stations in the UK but that would not be the point of the exercise. I can confirm that although I can usually hear the UKMN, albeit not with a strong signal, I have never been able to speak to Bill or any of the others.

Many thanks for your ideas..... any more?

Paul.

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

Saturday was bad luck. I was going to take part, but there was no way I was going out to the boat in that weather. We don't need a ham net... they already exist. And the ground wave sky wave problem has to be resolved. Who are we addressing? Suggest boaters in the UK and near Europe could be the starting point. After all, once it's going we can spread the bands and times.

 

[jerryat]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Hi Paul,

I understand your comments and only mentioned the UK Maritime Net because you did. We cruised for about seven years in the Caribbean and Med. and as Capabar says, Ham nets already exist BUT, with only a couple of exceptions (Herb, Trudie) they seldom last long.

I'm personally puzzled as to why one needs to let someone know where they are all the time, especially on short trips like Biscay. I mean, do people always feel the need to 'call home' when they go on a fortnights holiday?? And when you think about it, an Atlantic crossing takes only a few days longer.

I think you may have hit on a better solution i.e. join a local radio club. I'm in one, and have received terrific interest in 'trying to contact a yacht'. True, it means using only ham bands, but my club has a regular schedule (formally only once a week at the moment, though there are informal ones too) that I could use if I wanted to on passage.

IF I wanted to go down that route, the Club idea might be the better way as:

a) I would know that several people would be listening for my transmission
b) they know my telephone numbers and address, and live close by
c)they are very professional and know what to do in an emergency

As I indicate above, we go sailing to get away from day to day communication, not to take it with us, though I'm probably in the tiny minority these days. Yes, we used Herb each time, but as you will know, there's little spurious chat on his Net (superbly controlled) and it's purely for the exchange of weather info.

That said, if you or your loved ones were REALLY concerned re the position/state of any particular yacht, a call/email to Herb would elicit the latest info. 'Knowing' Herb though, this is not something I'd care to do in anything other than a real emergency at home!!!

Again let me stress that I am not 'knocking' your idea Paul, but pointing out that much (not Scuttlenet of course!) of this has been tried before, some with more success than others (e.g. several of the so-called Med. nets just drifted into oblivion because of lack of interest, email, mobile phones etc) so I'm a little doubtful if this could survive for long as at present envisaged.

I believe it would have a better chance if there was a nominated and, necessarily, extremely dedicated net controller, so that boats calling in (I assume urgent 'home' messages could be be passed to the yachts) KNOW that someone will be listening WILL act on that info.

I'll follow this development with great interest and hope it comes to fruition.

Cheers Jerry

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

Capabar, "Saturday was bad luck"........ Well, yes it was bad luck but it is just as well that you didn't venture out to the boat because the frequency was already in use.

"We don't need a ham net... they already exist"........ Yes there are many Ham/cruising nets but as far as I know, none of them post up-to-date position reports, from people on long passages, on the net for access by friends and relatives who do not have SSB. Those I know of that do post position reports are posted by the cruisers themselves once they arrive. If you know of a net that does what I am suggesting then please tell me about it and I will use it.

Scuttlenet would be mainly about getting messages ashore from those out in the middle of the oggin to those at home who do not have an SSB, helped by those who do.

Thus "Who are we addressing?"..... NOT those in UK and near European waters other than to ask them to listen for messages from further afield and relay them onto the forum whenever they can.

So the way it would work would be that you are out for a weekend sail in your usual local area or sitting at your mooring sipping an aperitif. At 1800 you have a listen on the appointed frequency..... If you pick up a message, when you get home that evening or next day, you post that message on the Scuttlenet forum.... something like:-

"I heard from "Damarri" yesterday evening, at 1800 they were at 15N30W, going like the clappers and all was well"

That's all....

So I don't think groundwave/skywave is a problem because we are not trying to speak to people nearby. I think someone crossing Biscay would be about the closest you would be likely to speak to.

Seriously though, If you know of another website/net/forum that does this then please let me know. There is no point in duplicating it.

Paul.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Jerry, thanks for your considered reponse and you are right of course that it can only work if there is sufficient interest and support...... No you don't call home every five minutes when on a fortnight's holiday (well I don't anyway!) but there is not the same "perceived risk" when hopping from port to port or across the channel. Your suggestion that it would stand a better chance if there was a dedicated net controller is quite right of course but that is just the problem.... WHO?

This would be intended as a kind of "Self-help Group" where people would hopefully get into the habit of switching on at 1800 to help as and when they can. Certainly it would be a bit hit and miss but I think it would be better than nothing......?

Paul.

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

You seem to have defined this for us, Paul, whether we want it or not. Ian, Snowy and I cooked this up as a result of Ian posting abt getting SSB radio checks. By all means run a net for your pals in Biscay but don't 'tell' me what 'we' are doing. Also if you use ham frequencies you can't pass a message, so it will be marine ssb or nothing - at least one decision made.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

Now now Capabar.... Don't get on your high horse. I gave full credit to Snowleoperd in the first line of my first posting on this subject. I also said that it had "set me thinking" and clearly my suggestion is a development of Snowleopards original "one off" idea.

I have not "defined" it, nor am I "telling you what to do". I have put a suggestion forward and I am asking for constructive comment and ideas so please threat this in the spirit in which it was intended.

Paul.

 

[Woodentop]

What do you use SSB for ?

An interesting idea. Can I chip in a few thoughts...?

What do you use the SSB for ?

I would suggest that most of the time is listening for weather and similar info.
The second use is "social" - gossiping with fellow passage makers.
A third use is "seeking info" - I have sought pilotage info when forced to divert and also supplied it. Another "seeking info" use is on facilities at destinations for example.
A fourth is checking in with fellow passage makers with an "I am here, not sunk yet" message.
Finally there was important message passing via Portsihead radio which is now shut.

So which of these uses do you see the net covering ?
The danger with the social side is that it just becomes a bore listening to endless domestic trivia - try any american net when the women get going !

An interesting idea but let us define the role of the net so that it becomes useful and used and not something that we hate and refuse to listen to.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: What do you use SSB for ?

Thanks Woodentop, yes the SSB is used for all those things and I guess this would be an extension to your fourth point, ie. letting those back home know that you have not sunk yet. It would also be interesting to track the progress of other forum members.... For example, when Stingo went a travelling he posted a few messages when he got there, and very amusing they were too, but it would also have been interesting to hear how he was getting on during the crossing....

I totally agree that we do not need a "Chat net". As you say, there are plenty of those already. I see it more as a facility for posting short progress messages..... but I'm open to suggestions.

Paul.

 

[Benbow]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

I like the idea of the net being an add-on to an active scuittlebut forum. I fear that if there was a separate scuttlenet forum, it would get little traffic and die taking the net with it. The special thing for me about the proposed net is the direct connection to scuttlebut.

I agree that it really has to be on maritime HF freq(s) not amateur, the radio police would quickly pounce if they heard a regular net being used by non amateurs. Whatever you think about the rules, there are amateurs who dedicate their lives to detecting and eliminating 'intruders'. It would be daft to exclude non hams and there is much less policing of the maritime bands provided sensible procedures are used, as I am sure they would be.

That makes it impossible to expect an amateur radio club to run it. But I think that a completely informal ad hoc arrangement might work given the backup of scuttlebut. Anyway in practice times and freqs might need to be shifted to accommodate particular boats.

At present I cannot join in because I have neither a boat nor a transmitter! But I would listen-out with interest and I hope to have set up a station here towards the end of the year. I do hear boats over much of the Indian Ocean in the evening if that helps.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Thanks Benbow, it would be just another forum on this ybw website, just as "Liveaboard Link" and "The Lounge" have been added comparatively recently to fill a perceived need. The reason I suggested a dedicated forum is so that it would not clutter up the Scuttlebutt forum and it would make these progress reports easier to find. If something particularly entertaining from Stingo were to appear on it, I am sure someone would mention it on Scuttlebutt and direct the rest of us to it! However if others feel that it would be better to use the existing Scuttlebutt message board, I would be quite happy with that....... and we haven't asked Kim yet!

Certainly the "radio police" would be a problem if unlicenced people were to use an Amateur frequency but I see no reason why we shouldn't nominate two frequencies, one Amateur and one Marine and you would report and/or listen on whichever you are licenced for. Both could post the messages on the Scuttlenet forum. If an Amateur Radio club became involved, yes they would certainly only speak to those with an Amateur licence..... such is life! However in the first instance and if there are enough people willing to give it go, I personally would prefer to keep it "in house" and just see if it is workable. There seem to be quite a few people on this forum who have SSB of one type or the other so I think it could work if we could all get into the habit of switching on at 1800 whenever we are on the boat to see if anybody wants to call in with a progress report. Yes, completely ad hoc and no doubt there will be times when there is no-one listening but if there are enough of us interested it just might work....

As a matter of interest, at what time and on which frequency did you hear boats in the Indian Ocean? Also, the Indian Ocean is a big place, do you happen to know where they were?

Paul.

 

[jerryat]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your comments. I think you will find that most, if not ALL long term/distance cruisers, have BOTH ham and marine frequency access. Do a search on SSB and you'll be swamped with the pros and cons, AND the perceived legal ramifications!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

So I think the selection of one or the other is largely immaterial, and suspect that if this idea does get off the ground, people will gravitate to one freqency and only monitor that.

Incidentally, I wasn't suggesting that the 'net' should be run by a Ham club (if that's what you meant) as I can't see them being interested enough over the longer term. However, and as I mentioned, IF I was tempted to 'report in' whilst on passage, I'm afraid I'd be inclined to contact my own club members for the reasons I outlined.

Still, I'm sure there are those who will support this initiative, and until we shove off again, Im sure I'll listen avidly as soon as it starts!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cheers Jerry

 

[snowleopard]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

[ QUOTE ]
I think you will find that most, if not ALL long term/distance cruisers, have BOTH ham and marine frequency access.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly not my experience. It may be that by having a ham set you tend to meet up with others similarly equipped but of the many liveaboards I have visited, the majority have marine SSB but to date I have met none with a ham rig (unless perhaps an illegal snip they were keeping quiet about).

 

[jerryat]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... A better idea!

Hi Snowleopard,

Perhaps you've lead a sheltered cruising life!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Cruisers having access to both sets of frequencies i.e. Ham and Marine, are by far the most common case in my experience!! And as for a majority of Marine sets, well that certainly amazes me. That of course, may have been your experience, but Ham sets are everywhere in the liveaboard community, and are regularly seen on both American and British yachts, never mind the Germans and Dutch!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The fact (of far more relevance than type to me) is that I've only met perhaps half a dozen cruising yachts with an HF radio, ham or marine, that had not had the set 'snipped' and could therefore use the full spectrum. As you suggest, they perhaps won't broadcast the fact, but that was the reality.

Mind you, I've obviously been consorting too much with dubious side of the sailing fraternity, but I make no apologies for that. Great people, great friends! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif hope just they don't get locked up along with me!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Cheers Jerry

 

[snowleopard]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\".... Your thoughts?

To have a successful ongoing network requires 3 things-

1. A dedicated and reliable net controller. Any volunteers? I'm no use - I even missed my own debut!

2. A sizeable pool of participants with the requisite kit. We may be doing better here - though it requires that participants have the kit, are on board at the designated time and aren't in a marina shielded by surrounding masts.

3. A subject for conversation that continues to be of interest to most of the participants. Any ideas? What do you hams talk about?