christoph
Well-Known Member
Has anyone been to Sayiada recently? We hear of severe hassle from the PP in this town. Papers being taken and kept overnight. Can anyone confirm or refute?
Sayiada Greece
- Thread starter christoph
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Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
I don't know about there but PP keeping papers overnight has happened to me a couple of times elsewhere. It's nothing sinister, they just want to be sure you pay before you leave I guess.
Steve C Cronin
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o
Don't understand you. Surely they would have taken the cash from you when you first visited their office?
Sounds like just another case of individuals in the Greek Port Police making up their own rules. Last night in Gaios, the policy of triple pricing was openly on display again.
Greek registered boats X Euros, Other EU boats 2X Euros, Non-EU boats 3X Euros.
As Nicholas Gage the Greek born author and NYT journalist says in his book Eleni, everything in Greece is governed by political patronage and corruption.
Me? I'm just here for the weather!
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Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Not if you (and they) didn't know how long you planned to stay.
Exactly. We berthed in a small fishing harbour on Limnos a few weeks ago when southerly gales were forecast. A nice lady PP called on us and, as we had no idea when we would leave, she suggested she take our DEKPA to the office for collection before we left. Nothing sinister about it, just common sense.
Steve C Cronin
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Perhaps I'm too honest but a couple of weeks ago, in Messolonghi, I kept on going to the marina office to extend our stay, day by day. The very nice girls kept on finding reasons why I should keep paying less and less as the days went by but then I have that effect on women sometimes!
nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
dslittle
Well-Known Member
Was that the PP or is the woman (who I always believed to be unofficial) still collecting?
Steve C Cronin
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They now have smart uniforms with a logo stating "Paxos Port Authority" but avoid charging Greek flagged boats which are directed to the PP who more often than not are closed or only charge them half of what I have to pay. I have witnessed this many times with my own eyes.
1bobt
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Greek flagged yacht pay for a form of licence that allowed them discounted prices. why do you always come out with these silly statements .If its so bad out here lift your anchor and go where you think the grass is greener or the sea bluer....
Steve C Cronin
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Bob,
B O L L O C K S !
As a citizen of the EU I have the same rights in a free market to the same pricing as any other citizen and NO they DON'T have such a licence and you bloody well know that. Now YOU take your silly ideas and go elsewhere you nauseating twerp.
Oh and just to get back on thread, there were NO visitors to Sayiada today as a torrential thunderstorm went through there this afternoon and evening. Wet weather gear in July in Greece? Yes, this year anyway!
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jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
What intemperate language. Why not ask Bob for an explanation rather than calling him a twerp?
It has long been the case that the port police have the option to charge permanent berth holders an annual fee, rather than the midnight to midnight berthing fee. The scheme applies to EU registered boats. It's not well publicised, and only applies within port police areas which implement it. One such area is around Porto Heli, Poros, Spetsai region (I don't know it's exact extent).
It's a fact that only boats which sail within a restricted area during the year can benefit from paying this annual fee, rather than daily berthing fees. And these, of course, are mainly Greek flagged boats who are aware of the arrangement. Some fleets of charter vessels I ran some 20 years ago in the Ionian took advantage of this scheme. Simplified our paperwork no end. I don't know whether it still applies there.
If you're permanently berthed in a marina there with an annual contract, you may find this applies to your vessel. I suggest you ask the local port police if they have such a scheme. From your observations about the Paxos port police, it sounds as though this may be the case.
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Steve C Cronin
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Steve C Cronin
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They just didn't want to know and anyway, the mooring fees are collected by an employee of the town (Dimos) Your adopted Greece is a very corrupt country, you know. Unlike you, I want anyone contemplating keeping their boat here to be aware of that.
As to "20 years ago" just how many "Charter fleets" did you run and for who? Nobody I've spoken to has ever heard of you!
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jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
I should have mentioned that individual dimos own the quaysides, and have the right to charge for their use in addition to port police standard charges.
My adopted country is UK. Yes, I have a house in Greece, and having run businesses there (and in other Mediterranean countries) for over 30 years I am well aware it's corrupt. A bit like UK during rationing . . .
What on earth makes you think that I don't want people to be aware of Greek realities?
Quite a few. In several countries. For me. Ask some of the native English speaking principals of marine businesses around Levkada. English speaking 'cos some of them come from the antipodes . . .
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Europe isn't unified. Some countries have legal systems based on the Napoleonic code (prescriptive law). Others use common law - making case by case judgements about activities which are not prescribed or forbidden. Greece has a prescriptive system
Greece is disorganised, and many regulations conflict with each other. Since 2005 there have been a number of drafts attempting to update and unify the regulations affecting boats. Over the last five years three "unified" versions have been debated in parliament, and at least two passed, only to have parts of the laws suspended a month or two later after heavy lobbying by big MoBo owners who saw their toys having to pay heavy circulation taxes. However, parts of these laws nominally remain in force, and conflict with earlier versions.
So the law concerning gathering circulation fees from leisure vessels in Greece is a mess. Some port police apply pre 2005 rules (which were consistent, if intrusive). Others have introduced some of the relaxations made in later years.
There's no common law remedy to sort this out in a country which bases its legal system on the Napoleonic code.
I'm not aware I'm a native Greek. I assume that's a dig to suggest a bias in my statements. That may be true, but if so, its' not intentional
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Just to support Jim, when I had my boat in a managed charter fleet in Corfu, the marina fees for the year included port charges. Boats from that fleet were never asked for port charges.
As he says it is a mess despite various attempts for rationalise the law. No good getting on a high horse and demanding "rights".
As he says it is a mess despite various attempts for rationalise the law. No good getting on a high horse and demanding "rights".
Steve C Cronin
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AT LAST! The man admits it!
You will be aware of course that their pensions don't get paid on a "local" basis? They wouldn't stand for that, would they? Wouldn't catch ME buying a property here. NO WAY!
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Steve C Cronin
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Then what is such a s..t h.l. doing in the EU? Providing an offshore "Pirates Island" summer playground for the Italians? It serves little other purpose.
This is the view of all of my Greek friends, not my original thought btw.
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
Steve, You seem to favour an EU where the same rules and laws should apply everywhere, where the rules and laws should be enforced in the same way everywhere and presumably where all the taxes were the same everywhere?
Wouldn't that sort of EU be a pretty boring place? Apart from the better weather, in that sort of an EU, what would be the attraction in coming to Greece? Yes, Greece has some lovely ports and anchorages but in a fully unified EU the anchorages would be protected (Posidonia seagrass is everywhere) and you'd have to pick up expensive mooring buoys, and in order to meet EU-wide safety concerns the ports would be much more expensive places. We'd all clear off to Turkey, suddenly the visa and blue card rules there would seem like a minor issue.
I love being in Greece in large part because of the way of life here. I swapped the pressurised, highly-organised, rigid and officious UK for the laid-back, calm, friendly and yes, chaotic, Greece. There is an awful lot wrong with Greece, nobody can deny that, but the solution is not to force the Greeks to become more British or more German, that would destroy what makes Greece what she is. The solution is to work with Greece to make their systems more effective and more efficient, but without expecting Greece to become more northern-European in nature.
I think there are two methods for handling the many different ways in which the rules are applied and enforced throughout Greece. One way is to get angry about the inconsistencies, to stress yourself out because one port makes charges another port didn't, or to feel cheated because you know the VAT you just paid will never reach the government. The other way is to just accept it as part of being in Greece, the port charges are not excessive in any case, and when you are asked whether you want a receipt simply smile, say no, and accept that you have just helped defraud the Greek state as well.