Salvage
- Thread starter cimota
- Start date
Norman_E
Well-known member
The law is quite straightforward. If you find a boat which has been abandoned and you save it, you are entitled to claim salvage. If you do so then the percentage of the value that you receive can be determined by a court. In practice if the boat was insured, then the insurers will probably make an offer. In the case of a boat like that, the actual value may be very little as damage to the boat may cost almost as much to fix as it is worrth. The owner might be grateful however if you saved his personal effects.
HoratioHB
New member
You sure about that? I thought that if the captain accepted assistance then you could claim a proportion (Lloyds open form) but if its abandoned then I reckon its yours.
Could be wrong - I often am.
Could be wrong - I often am.
Norman_E
Well-known member
You may be right for a totally abandoned boat. I know that the marine salvage companies who send tugs to stricken vessels generally get the owners to sign before they put a tow aboard.
sailor211
Active member
I think it is yours, you may be able to sell it to the insurance company, rebuild it , or you may have to dispose of a large amount of fibreglass and soggy cushions at your own expence
Rum_Pirate
Well-known member
This reminded me of the Wilbur Smith book Hungry as the Sea
He has a new one out now.
I wish I was on a commission for publicity.
elton
Well-known member
Anything 'found' anywhere remains the property of the owner. If you 'find' something in the middle of nowhere you can't just 'claim' it. It's no different to a car left broken down on a country road, or a wallet found in the gutter.
HoratioHB
New member
Not a sea lawyer but I am ex RN. Many years go in a minesweeper we salvaged a fishing boat and all got shares. If I remember correctly it was abandoned and the RN sold it back to the owners/insurers. peacetime 'Prize money' if you like. So i'm fairly sure that 'flotsam' belongs to who finds it.
monkfish24
Active member
My father was involved in salvage of the Yacht "Ruth" which was found adrift in the Bermuda Triangle, along with other crew from HMS London.
He received salvage from that which was paid out by the insurance company. I don't believe it is ever intended as "buying" the boat back it is more as compensation for being unlucky enough to find a vessel in distress.
If every vessels in distress became the property of the rescuer, I'm pretty sure the RNLI would be rolling in money!
He received salvage from that which was paid out by the insurance company. I don't believe it is ever intended as "buying" the boat back it is more as compensation for being unlucky enough to find a vessel in distress.
If every vessels in distress became the property of the rescuer, I'm pretty sure the RNLI would be rolling in money!
elton
Well-known member
If the navy sold it back to the insurers they must have struck a deal, but the boat remains the property of the owner unless they relinquish ownership. There are no automatic rights to claim lost or abandoned property of any kind. There are some obligations on boat skippers to accept assistance along with associated costs, in the case of impensing risk to life, but that's fairly recent legislation.
Searush
New member
The RNLI used to have a policy that, if the crew claimed salvage for recovering the boat, they had to pay back the costs of the service. They are entitled to claim, but effectively discouraged as it has the side effect of discouraging people from calling for help.
Remember their brief is to save lives & they only recover vessels if it is safe or easier to do. You can have no complaint if they lift you off & leave the boat.
Edit; Wiki says RNLI now obligate crews to NOT claim salvage.
Last edited:
elton
Well-known member
marina95
Member
Only applies to UK Waters though? What about the open sea in "International Waters"
rhumlady
New member
"Many years go in a minesweeper we salvaged a fishing boat and all got shares."
Many many years ago in a minehunter going from Singapore to Hong Kong, they were coastal minehunters;-), we towed a Tiwanese fishing boat into Hong Kong. It had been adrift for about 2 weeks and it took us abuut 4 days if I remember right. All Lloyds open form got us was stick in the local papers Who said the RN would only rescue people for cash. MOD promptly told the skipper that no claim would be made. This was in 1969 at the hight of the red guards popularity in China.
Many many years ago in a minehunter going from Singapore to Hong Kong, they were coastal minehunters;-), we towed a Tiwanese fishing boat into Hong Kong. It had been adrift for about 2 weeks and it took us abuut 4 days if I remember right. All Lloyds open form got us was stick in the local papers Who said the RN would only rescue people for cash. MOD promptly told the skipper that no claim would be made. This was in 1969 at the hight of the red guards popularity in China.
theforeman
New member
they usually agree so to do when they accept the insured value from the insurer. ownership of the insured property then passes to the insurer.
fisherman
Well-known member
I've dealt with two 'salvage' situations. As I understand it if a vessel is unattended and in distress, i.e not safely moored or anchored etc I can take charge of it with a view to preventing loss or damage. I must make the vessel safe and am responsible for the vessel and any damage to it while in my care, until I hand it to the receiver of wrecks. Once I have charge of it I need not hand it to the owner if he turns up. As above, the award, which is designed to encourage people to make efforts to save a vessel and prevent further loss, is decided in court.
In my cases, the first I handed back a 120k dive charter boat which I pulled off the rocks, (the mooring gave up). The owner was wringing his hands thinking he had lost the boat to me, but I just said 'well, you owe me a drink'. The second was a 26ft yacht off its mooring and up a rocky bank on a big ebb tide. I did not want to do anything about it as I only had an unreliable outboard and the chance of causing damage to other boats if I lost power was a worry. Managed it anyway, spent a couple of hours and many mobile calls finding the owner who said 'I can never thank you so I won't try!' A drink would have been nice.....
I think that finding a vessel unattended at sea, when my action can prevent a possible total loss, is fair game, but taking advantage of someone's unhappy predicament when still aboard is not.
In my cases, the first I handed back a 120k dive charter boat which I pulled off the rocks, (the mooring gave up). The owner was wringing his hands thinking he had lost the boat to me, but I just said 'well, you owe me a drink'. The second was a 26ft yacht off its mooring and up a rocky bank on a big ebb tide. I did not want to do anything about it as I only had an unreliable outboard and the chance of causing damage to other boats if I lost power was a worry. Managed it anyway, spent a couple of hours and many mobile calls finding the owner who said 'I can never thank you so I won't try!' A drink would have been nice.....
I think that finding a vessel unattended at sea, when my action can prevent a possible total loss, is fair game, but taking advantage of someone's unhappy predicament when still aboard is not.
fisherman
Well-known member
In re the 'duty of care' there was the case of a Harrier jump jet which lost its way and landed on top of the containers on a ship. The ships captain wanted a large salvage award, but decided to hand it back when it was pointed out that considerable damage to the aircraft would accrue if it was not serviced pretty quick. It could be said that he had done nothing to contribute to the salvage except just 'being there'
Mariner69
New member
The insurers will not accept the ownership; due to the transfer of liabilities such as wreck removal and the consequences say of it sinking in the entrance to a port thereby blocking it.
What they do is accept the loss and 'put the owner in the same position' as if they had paid the total loss. Owner gets the money and keeps the liabilities for wreck removal which can be huge.
If the owner later makes money out of the wreck he is obliged to compensate the insurer; else he would be making a profit from a loss and that would be bad policy.
The first salvor on a derelict has exclusive right to the salvage and the owner cannot appoint an alternative to take over.
HoratioHB
New member
Found this which is probably pretty definitive:
Salvage law has as a basis that a salvor should be rewarded for risking his life and property to rescue the property of another from peril. Salvage law is in some ways similar to the wartime law of prize, the capture, condemnation and sale of a vessel and its cargo as a spoil of war, insofar as both compensate the salvor/captors for risking life and property.[2] The two areas of law may dovetail. For instance, a vessel taken as a prize, then recaptured by friendly forces on its way to the prize adjudication, is not deemed a prize of the rescuers (title merely reverts to the original owner). But the rescuing vessel is entitled to a claim for salvage.[3] Likewise a vessel found badly damaged, abandoned and adrift after enemy fire disabled her does not become a prize of a rescuing friendly vessel, but the rescuers may claim salvage.[4]
A vessel is considered in peril if it is in danger or could become in danger. Examples of a vessel in peril are when it is aground or in danger of going aground. Prior to a salvage attempt the salvor receives permission from the owner or the master to assist the vessel. If the vessel is abandoned no permission is needed.
The amount of the award depends on, in part, the value of the salved vessel, the degree of risk involved and the degree of peril the vessel was in. Legal disputes do arise from the claiming of salvage rights. To reduce the amount of a claim after an accident, boat owners or skippers often remain on board and in command of the vessel; they do everything possible to minimise further loss and seek to minimize the degree of risk the vessel is in. If another vessel offers a tow and the master or owner negotiates an hourly rate before accepting then salvage does not apply.
Some maritime rescue organisations, such as Britain's Royal National Lifeboat Institution, insist the crews of their lifeboats renounce their right to claim compensation for salvage.
Jetsam are goods that were thrown off a ship, which was in danger, to save the ship. Flotsam are goods that floated off the ship while it was in danger or when it sank. Ligan or lagan are goods left in the sea on the wreck or tied to a buoy so that they can be recovered later by the owners. Derelict is abandoned vessels or cargo.
In the United Kingdom under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, jetsam, flotsam, lagan and all other cargo and wreckage remain the property of their original owners. Anyone, including recreational divers and beachcombers, removing those goods must inform the Receiver of Wreck to avoid the accusation of theft. As the leisure activity of wreck diving is common, there are laws to protect historic wrecks of archaeological importance and the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 protects ships and aircraft that are the last resting place of the remains of members of the armed forces.
The 1910 Brussels Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules with Respect to Assistance and Salvage at Sea reflects the traditional legal principles of marine salvage. The 1989 International Convention on Salvage incorporated the essential provisions of the 1910 Convention, and added some new provisions, as well. The 1989 Salvage Convention entered force on 14 July 1996, with nearly twenty parties. It replaces the 1910 Convention for states which are parties to both where the two conventions' provisions are incompatible.
Salvage law has as a basis that a salvor should be rewarded for risking his life and property to rescue the property of another from peril. Salvage law is in some ways similar to the wartime law of prize, the capture, condemnation and sale of a vessel and its cargo as a spoil of war, insofar as both compensate the salvor/captors for risking life and property.[2] The two areas of law may dovetail. For instance, a vessel taken as a prize, then recaptured by friendly forces on its way to the prize adjudication, is not deemed a prize of the rescuers (title merely reverts to the original owner). But the rescuing vessel is entitled to a claim for salvage.[3] Likewise a vessel found badly damaged, abandoned and adrift after enemy fire disabled her does not become a prize of a rescuing friendly vessel, but the rescuers may claim salvage.[4]
A vessel is considered in peril if it is in danger or could become in danger. Examples of a vessel in peril are when it is aground or in danger of going aground. Prior to a salvage attempt the salvor receives permission from the owner or the master to assist the vessel. If the vessel is abandoned no permission is needed.
The amount of the award depends on, in part, the value of the salved vessel, the degree of risk involved and the degree of peril the vessel was in. Legal disputes do arise from the claiming of salvage rights. To reduce the amount of a claim after an accident, boat owners or skippers often remain on board and in command of the vessel; they do everything possible to minimise further loss and seek to minimize the degree of risk the vessel is in. If another vessel offers a tow and the master or owner negotiates an hourly rate before accepting then salvage does not apply.
Some maritime rescue organisations, such as Britain's Royal National Lifeboat Institution, insist the crews of their lifeboats renounce their right to claim compensation for salvage.
Jetsam are goods that were thrown off a ship, which was in danger, to save the ship. Flotsam are goods that floated off the ship while it was in danger or when it sank. Ligan or lagan are goods left in the sea on the wreck or tied to a buoy so that they can be recovered later by the owners. Derelict is abandoned vessels or cargo.
In the United Kingdom under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, jetsam, flotsam, lagan and all other cargo and wreckage remain the property of their original owners. Anyone, including recreational divers and beachcombers, removing those goods must inform the Receiver of Wreck to avoid the accusation of theft. As the leisure activity of wreck diving is common, there are laws to protect historic wrecks of archaeological importance and the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 protects ships and aircraft that are the last resting place of the remains of members of the armed forces.
The 1910 Brussels Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules with Respect to Assistance and Salvage at Sea reflects the traditional legal principles of marine salvage. The 1989 International Convention on Salvage incorporated the essential provisions of the 1910 Convention, and added some new provisions, as well. The 1989 Salvage Convention entered force on 14 July 1996, with nearly twenty parties. It replaces the 1910 Convention for states which are parties to both where the two conventions' provisions are incompatible.
cimota
Member
Important to note that Wikipedia is not the most reliable of sources.
The conflict I see is the difference between the Salvage law (and presumption) and the Merchant Shipping Act. The receiver of wrecks seems to be the important step.
If it were me finding something like this and the owner contact me, I think I'd be handing it over.
The conflict I see is the difference between the Salvage law (and presumption) and the Merchant Shipping Act. The receiver of wrecks seems to be the important step.
If it were me finding something like this and the owner contact me, I think I'd be handing it over.
