Salvage

[chevey]

A friend of mine lent his boat to a good friend of his.
While he was out sailing he ran into problems and radioed for a tow in.
When they got the boat back in the owner was given a bill for the tow.
Now the owner doesn't think he should have to pay this and his (ex) friend isn't coughing up the money and the bloke who did the tow is saying he is going to arrest the boat if he dosent get the money for the tow.

Its quite a bit of money too £800
Does anyone have any know where he stands with this?
Does he have to pay?
What happens when a boat is arrested?

Paula

 

[Lizzie_B]

Did the person accepting the tow sign or verbally agree to be charged £800 for the tow.
Was the Tower another boater or a company.
Where did this take place, why have you used the heading 'salvage'.
Is the guy claiming salvage against the boat or is he making a charge for the tow.
In the UK, when a boat is 'arrested' it is usually held by a neutral third party while 'salvage' or other financial claims are being sorted out.

 

[chevey]

He says not. He said he thought it was going to be fifty quid sort of deal it was less than 10 miles.

Yes he said he is a company but it was just an old fishing boat

In the bill he has put salvage of yacht

I suppose there is a cost to this arrest thing?
If a third party is going to sort it out it they wont do it for free

Paula

 

[Guest]

a) Who did they radio to ?

b) Was it commercial Tower that came out ?

c) Was any mention made at any time about charges for the service ?

Seems that it may ... now this is assuming ... that radio call goes out .. HMCG or another answers ... boat dispatched to tow in ... it would be expected in this case then to be commercial ... and charges levied against the boat. But of course original post is a bit skint on detail ..

The owner if above is the case then has to find way to make person who used the boat cough up ... as I believe that as the "Boat is liable" then the owner is first call for the tower to gain his fees. I assum that tower has had situation explained that bill should be directed to user of boat ... and he has refused based on no contractural evidence to support - so he goes for the boat ... as any commercial would.

It is possible depending on circumstances to make Claim on Insurance to cover the fees ...

Serious meeting and discussion appears to be needed of all concerned ... person who asked for the tow .. owner and tower ... to arrive at solution.

Could be end of a friendship !!

 

[chevey]

Sorry about the detail but i dont really know much more.

I think he called the coast guard and they refused to call the lifeboat to tow them in as it was not a life threatening situation.
I don't know whether they called or gave the number of the bloke who did it but it was one or the other.

Not sure bit i think so?

According to the person in charge of the boat.. no
But he could be trying to cover his back

I don't think there friends anymore

 

[Judders]

I think this almost certainly falls to the owners of the vessel and is highly likely to be insured.

Whether the owner then subrogates is dependant on what agreements are in place. In a commercial situation the skipper would almost certainly be authorised to negotiate on such matters, but that is hardly likely to be relavent here.

 

[Guest]

Mmmmmm just another reason why I don't like lending out stuff !! unless both sides are aware of responsibilities !! Sounds untrusting - but which is better .....

I think owner has to find way to get user to accept his part ... ??

 

[Athene V30]

Who's rope was used for the tow?

If supplied by the FV then very likely owner will have to pay. Just because numpty skipper didn't agree a price by taking the tow rope he has accepted he needed help so the FV probably can call it salvage.

Lucky he is getting away for £800!

Btw since when did coastguard start offering a RAC style home recovery service? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[landaftaf]

IIRC, to claim salvage there must be three conditions proved

1. it must be voluntary
2. the vessel salvaged must be in peril/danger
3. it must be successful

unless LOF has been agreed and either signed or witnessed (normally by CG), it will be even more complicated.

so, 1) and 3) seems ok but 2) is probably in dispute

I would be inclined to obtain legal advice as £800 for a 10 mile tow seems excessive - accounting for time and costs, equipment used and element of danger/risk

a contract tow would be more realistic for services offered - a smaller rate than 800 squid, so you should find out what the going rate for this sort of job is (ask the local lifeboat ppl)................. of course it wont stop the 'salvour' putting a writ on the boat if he so wishes

and - you could always go to the small claim court to reclaim your costs from the person responsible for your losses

 

[savageseadog]

[ QUOTE ]
and - you could always go to the small claim court to reclaim your costs from the person responsible for your losses

[/ QUOTE ]Unless the "friend" claims the boat was faulty or he was sent to sea without it being determined that was able to pilot the vessel, the owner has a duty of care.

Sounds like the end of a beautiful relationship.

 

[landaftaf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and - you could always go to the small claim court to reclaim your costs from the person responsible for your losses

[/ QUOTE ]Unless the "friend" claims the boat was faulty or he was sent to sea without it being determined that was able to pilot the vessel, the owner has a duty of care.

Sounds like the end of a beautiful relationship.

[/ QUOTE ]

well - he wasnt 'sent' anywhere, and 'faulty' is a difficult word to prove if the boat got him about 10 miles away.

I see the friendship getting dented, as well as the wallets and even some heavy questions asked by the insurance co.

but - without thread drift, a realistic claim by the tug might well solve the issue of seemingly getting robbed - /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

its easy to say 'if only' but if only the friend had phoned the owner, or asked the tug for a contract tow ................

 

[savageseadog]

Yes but the ultimate responsibility is with the owner. By giving his friend the boat to go around in he has ultimately endorsed that person as being fit to pilot the vessel, If that person wasn't up to the job then he (the owner) is to blame. Similarly if the vessel wasn't fit to returm from its ten mile trip then he is to blame for that too.

 

[landaftaf]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes but the ultimate responsibility is with the owner. By giving his friend the boat to go around in he has ultimately endorsed that person as being fit to pilot the vessel, If that person wasn't up to the job then he (the owner) is to blame. Similarly if the vessel wasn't fit to return from its ten mile trip then he is to blame for that too.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless his friend said he took responsibility for his own actions, or had his own insurance, then I agree. there are many unknowns here and we are discussing the issue without enough background knowledge.

to my mind the answer is to approach the tug skipper, point out its not a legit salvage claim but he would be happy to reimburse him reasonable expenses (the receipt to be discussed) and pay 50/50 with his ex chum /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[tazzle]

Have you seen the (fairly recent) Admiralty Court case Sea Tractor vs Tramp ?

Tramp is a small coaster that ran into problems moving off her berth on the Swale. She called for a small tug for assistance. Later, when Sea Tractor put the bill in, Tramp contended it should have been a commercial tow worth £625. Sea Tractor said it should have been on salvage terms. The court, with one of the Brethren of Trinity House sitting with the judge as Assessor, agreed with Sea Tractor. The tug was awarded £12,500.

It can be one of few cases heard in our higher courts where the phrase 'Luvly Jubbly' has been entered into evidence /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
CASE DETAILS HERE

 

[MASH]

So what's the condition of being in International waters that is a major factor in a Salvage agreement - it is a critical matter, from what I recall. Has no one got a Reeds Almanack? The whole thing used to be in there chapter and verse.

 

[brianrunyard]

I would think that as owner:
1. He tries to negotiate a reduction.
2. Reduction or not he pays.
3. Takes ex friend to small claims court for reimbursment.

 

[tazzle]

Ah, lots of things used to be in Reeds, including a tear-out page printed with the 'no cure no pay' Lloyds salvage agreement, Captains' medical guide including sections on DIY midwifery and how to deal with crew corpses and a concise section on marine law.

These days it's just marinas and stuff - wifi availability being considered more appropriate for modern readers than stemming arterial blood loss.

 

[savageseadog]

That salvage claim case was a bit dubious. After all that's what tugs are around harbours for, it's recognised that ships will have difficulty manoevering in harbour situations. It was in my view a standard everyday issue of a vessel requiring help entering or leaving port.

 

[tazzle]

That was not the judge's view. He applied the test "The vessel must have encountered a situation which would expose it to damage if the service was not rendered, such that no reasonable person in charge of the venture would refuse a salvor's help if it was offered to him upon the condition of paying a salvage award".

Chevey says
"While he was out sailing he ran into problems and radioed for a tow in."

Behind that there will be an exact statement of circumstances that will include the consequences to the vessel of not taking a tow.

I presume Cheney's friend and the master of the vessel both have in their posession an exact account of the position; without us knowing it, I fail to see how any of us can judge whether the tow was a commercial tow or a tow on salvage terms.

 

[MoodySabre]

I googled the definition of salvage. Look here

Definitions of salvage on the Web:

* property or goods saved from damage or destruction
* save from ruin, destruction, or harm
* the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or destruction
* the act of rescuing a ship or its crew or its cargo from a shipwreck or a fire
* collect discarded or refused material; "She scavenged the garbage cans for food"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Salvage is the process of rescuing the hull, equipment or cargo of a shipwreck. Generally the crew have lost control of or abandoned the ship due to sinking, being stranded on rocks or aground on a shallow sea bed, or simply because its means of propulsion has failed and it is drifting with the wind and tide.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvage


I think that there is precedent at law that people cannot charge an amount for a service beyond that which is reasonable in the circumstances. Go see a solicitor - they are trying it on.