Sails: Contender, Quantum, Dacron questions

[demonboy]

Hello all,

Looking at getting some sails replaced and have a number of options. Firstly we're avoiding laminated cloth as we're all furling. So there's Dacron and Vectron. Vectron's a bit too pricey so we'll probably go for Dacron. Bear in mind we're cruisers so we're not looking for performance. Longevity is more important.

We have three options:

1) Moby sails based in Turkey who use Contender sailcloth. A very keen quote. A small loft, however, means they're cutting smaller panels for the sails.
2) Quantum sails. Got a good contact in S. Africa who reckons this could be my best bet as labour is cheap and Quantum are a big manufacturer with lofts all round the world. He also has experience with possible customs/import issues.
3) Get a Hood dealer here to get the Dacron cut in the UK and stitched here in Marmaris. He'd deal with importing the cloth.

Moby is the cheapest so far but haven't got a quote from Quantum yet. Hood is more expensive but our current sails are Hood and are probably as old as the boat (20 years), which suggests good workmanship.

Any comments or suggestions or things to consider further?

 

[charles_reed]

Ironically it was Hoods who first used Vectran in sailcloth - the performance characteristics of the fibre make it considerably superior to Dacron (the trade name of PET) as a material for woven sailcloth, as it is far more UV resistant, has a lower modulus of elasticity, is stronger and more chafe-resistant. They now call it Vektran to forge a copyright (spurious IMHO).
I wouldn't be surprised if your current sails aren't woven from a Vectran mix.

Contender are a respectable sailmaker-supplies company, so the material won't be trash, but they have a 3 different grades of woven fabric from PET and specifically recommend their laminates over woven fabric.
They're probably best recognised for the high quality of their spinnaker fabric.
Their website http://www.contendersailcloth.com/index1.asp

As you know, the 2nd greatest enemy of sail life is chafe; and chafe is most grievous along seams (it's the sewing that chafes through). So multiple panels = multiple seams = multiplied chafing.
However bias-cut (mitre-cut) sails always set better than cross-cut sails, even if they are more expensive - having once had a cross-cut genoa, I'd never repeat that error of judgement.
Certainly more seams = more labour = higher costs, hence an increasing proportion of UK sailmakers having their sails designed on their computers here, the cutting list produced and cut and sewn in the Far East.

I don't follow your remarks about laminates and furling - laminates are degraded most of all by handling and they are probably more suited for use on roller-furling gear than conventional clipped sails.

The combination of CAD sail-design and modern fabrics mean that you could enjoy sails that will have a x3 working life, and enhanced performance over your existing ones (or the same again?). Trouble is fabric choice is not as simple as you make it appear and the small loft probably won't have the experience, expertise or programme to produce sails as competent as the big boys.

Oh! the worst enemy of cruising sails? - UV degradation, especially in lower latitudes.

 

[FAITIRA]

Just had a genny delivered from 'FAR EAST SAILS HONG KONG', Don,t confuse with other HK sailmakers!
Don,t know if you are a rich patriot, like some on the Forum, but it is a beautiful job for half the price quoted in UK or France.
I suspect many of the 'home produced' sails are cut and sewn in the F.E. and marked up by the 'agent' in the EU/UK.
I was working in Ireland last winter, and was told by a F.E. wholesaler this is what happens.
I had a quote for the genny from a UK outlet, who certainly to my knowledge is only an agent for a F.E. sailmaker (well known), their quote obviously, included the agency's 'generous' middle mans fee.

Order direct, use card payment and you are pretty well protected, I,ve proved it, had a complete refund from visa when I was, on one occasion not satisfied, totally happy with my experience of F.ES.H.K. Bill.

 

[enbigodspeed]

Dear Demonboy

Just to avoid any misunderstood ;

All the woven and laminated sailclothes has a width of max. 140 cm. ( just like the ones we use ) which means the widest panel that can be cut by any sailmaker is max. 140 cm.On the other hand the standart plotter/cutters manufactured for sailmakers ( just like the one we have which is the most common used one all over the world ) are designed to cut max. 140 cm width cloth.
We do not have any idea from where you got this information but we have been making well engineered high quality sails for a long time which lets us to have the production license for Elvstrom Sails of Denmark by 03.08.2008.
Today Moby Marine Ltd. is the licensee of Elvstrom Sails of Denmark and manufacturing cruising and regatta sails in its Marmaris facility.

Best regards
Elvstrom Sails Turkiye

 

[R.durbin]

Another company that make great sailcloth is Challenge - Challenge is owned by the founder of Bainbridge - I guess Mr. Bainbridge left and started a sailcloth business named Challenge. Some of the lofts in China will order special made cloth that is not name brand - to save some money - cloth is not as good as the name brands like Bainbridge, Contender and Challenge. Basically you have woven dacrons and then the laminates. Laminate sails are really racing sails - they don't like to be folded or stored outside the vessel.

If you are getting quotes from hong kong - watch the cloth quoted and be sure it is a name brand - we have bought from Lee and far east sails - Lee is slightly less than fareast but sails from Lee are more generic. Last purchase was from fareastsails - we are happy with these - will but from them again.

 

[ditchcrawler]

"Laminate sails are really racing sails".That may have been true 10ish years ago but now their are many types of laminate sails that are ideal for the sailor who likes to sail well i.e. get the best out of his boat.Cruising laminates are becoming more popular as they hold their shape better than dacron.When they come to the end of their working life their failure is greater.I have a dacron cross cut fully battened main but a triradial laminate genny.It sets very well and to me was worth the extra money.

 

[damoler]

Hello

I am in Marmaris, Turkey trying to buy sails. I am looking at Moby because they are a local loft that (I think) would build the sails here and thus be more able to get the right fit.

Do you have any experience with this loft? or any general advice on sailcloth and buying sails in Turkey?

Thanks,
Doug Moler
sy Hobnob in Marmaris

 

[damoler]

Hello,

I am in Turkey and a local cruiser suggested getting sails out of Hong Kong. How have the sails stood up and are you still happy? would you still recommend buying from them?

Some have said the quality is not as good as locally made sails.

Thanks,
Doug Moler
sy Hobnob, Marmaris Turkey

 

[Norman_E]

Hello all,

..........Moby sails based in Turkey who use Contender sailcloth. A very keen quote. A small loft, however, means they're cutting smaller panels for the sails.

Have you visited the Moby loft in the Saniye? It is probably the largest sail loft in Marmaris. The others I have visited are tiny by comparison. Moby appear to have the only local loft where a complete sail for a fair sized boat could be laid out flat.

 

[vyv_cox]

Vectron's a bit too pricey so we'll probably go for Dacron. Bear in mind we're cruisers so we're not looking for performance. Longevity is more important.

Vectron/Vektran is rather more pricy but if you want longevity that's the way to go. When we bought Straitshooter the genoa was three years old, the mainsail about five. Both were clapped out, especially the genoa. We replaced them with Vectron, as it was called then, around 11/12 years ago. Since 2004 we have been sailing for six months of the year. The sails remain in superb condition with no evidence of shape change. in 2009/10 I had some restitching done on both sails when the sailmaker commented that both were good for years to come.

 

[snooks]

Pssst....Look at the date of the thread

 

[KellysEye]

If you go for Dacron get a cloth sample from your shortlisted sailmakers. Get a magnifying glass and a bright light. Hold the light beneath the cloth. It immediately becomes clear which cloth has the highest fibre count. Fibre is expensive glue is cheap and the longest lasting sails have the most fibre. If you don't want to go through that process the answer to who has the highest count is Hood cloth.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Any comments or suggestions or things to consider further?

If you were building a new car and were able to specify the source of the engine, would you specify one from an unknown third world supplier based on the lowest cost and with no knowledge of how it would perform or would you go for a good known first world supplier whose products perform well? I suspect you would chose the latter so why go for el cheepo with your sailing boats "engine"?

Making sails is not just about the cloth and the price - its about the know how accumulated over decades and it is about the performance of the end result even if you dont race. The speed difference between poor and good could easily be 15% not to mention the difference in pointing ability - and both of these might really be important in some difficult situation.

A sailing boat is all about sailing well. Purely as a means of transport, sailing is outmoded but you do it for the sheer pleasure of making a boat sail well. Or at least I do.

So put your hand in your pocket and get the best you can afford.