Sailing in heavy weather.

billmacfarlane

Active member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,722
Location
Brighton
Visit site
We seem to be going round in circles trying to read into theoretical figures probably more than can be read into one individual figure. Bill Cooper has suggested YM publish the discussion. Wouldn't it be more helpful , rather than to look at a class of boat theoretically , to get Scuttlebutters to tell of their own experiences of sailing in heavy weather , what sort of boat they were in , light , medium or heavy displacement, the sea state , how they and the boat coped , and what conclusions they drew from their experience ? I think this would tell us more than a set of figures can possibly tell about a particular boat. Here's one of mine to get the ball rolling. Apologies in advance if it gets a bit long. All I can say in defence is that I'm worse with a glass in my hand .
We left Littlehampton at 0030 hrs in a chartered Sadler Barracuda , 11 of us plus skipper/owner. Weather forecast was for F8 occ 9 SW which was fairly accurate. Destination Cherbourg or Fecamp , depending on the wind direction. On leaving harbour the wind was a steady 38-40 knots wsw so the decision was made to head for Fecamp to give us a freer sail. The point of sailing was a close reach . The sea state was a big rolling sea with occasional breakers that seemed to come at unpredictable angles. For those who don't know the boat she's a 45' ULDB ( Ultra Light Displacement Boat ) which is primarily a design for downwind sledging in the US Pacific waters. She had twin rudders and a lifting wing keel. Not the sort of boat some people would think suitable for the conditions we met.
We were triple reefed with a scrap of roller headsail. Speedwise the boat was making between 10 and 15 knots ( no exaggeration ) at a heeled angle of about 20 degrees. The twin rudders meant that she always had a good grip even when we had gusts in excess of 45 knots. The main never neeeded spilling in the gusts. She never threatened to lose her grip in the water. Motion was lively but you could easily steer the boat through the wave troughs to keep her more comfortable. It was comfortable enough to sleep down below. We shipped a fair bit of water in the cockpit with an occasional green one passing straight over the boat and washing us off the cockpit seats. This was partly due to our inexperience in helming her and the speed she was doing. We quite simply sailed into the occasional wave because we couldn't actually see them in the dark. . We were all harnessed on. The cockpit was the boat's real achilles heel. It was very wide and very shallow. You couldn't even begin to brace yourself and felt vulnerable when we shipped a green one. The best way to cope was to sit out to weather and lash yourself to the guard rails. We had an exciting if uneventful night those of us who hadn't succumbed to seasickness. We arrived in Fecamp at 0700 hrs the trip taking 6.5 hrs. What would it been like if we were in survival conditions ? We were nowhere near that but if we were , for that particular boat I would have dropped all sail , turned her stern into the wind , and trailed warps to slow her down. She was designed for downwind sailing but she would have been too fast without warps with the danger of burying her nose into a wave and the possibilty of losing her rig. Would she have sailed to windward comfortably in those conditions ? A qualified yes. She's light and in a heavy ,head sea would have stuggled and required a lot of work from the helm. She was capable but it would have been unpleasant. Would I have rather been in a heavy displacement boat that night. Not on your Nelly !!! I had what has since turned out to the sail of my life that night ( so far ) . The comfort factor would have been higher but we never felt unsafe or frightened , only uncomfortable. The thrill factor was very high. given the recent threads re stabilty curves did we feel as if we would capsize ? Never . I don't know what her theoretical stability curve , not particularly interested , but she never felt anything but secure on the water. Would I have liked to sail her for days at a time like that ? No ! It's possible but uncomfortable. Could a crew of 2 have coped on the boat that night ? Yes but !!! The boat would have needed bigger winches than were specified for 2 people to cope with Conclusions ?
Light displacement boats can be sailed in heavy weather with provisos. They're less forgiving than heavier displacement types and need more crew input. They can be more exciting. The more you know about your particular boat the better.
The cockpits of your standard production boats aren't suitable for heavy weather sailing. When I was looking for a new boat last year I rejected 2 out of hand after sitting in their cockpits ( Jeanneau and Bav 37's ) . Apologies to their owners but try to imagine how you would feel in 40 knots of wind harnessed to the helm in those wide shallow cockpits. Not for me I'm afraid. No amount of reading stability curves will let you know what it's like , only experiencing it.
Lastly a set of figures for a boat is merely an indicator of what it's like to sail. David has asked a lot of theoretical questions re what happens if ? As you can gather I'm not a great fan of theory. If you put your real time experiences on this thread it'll probably answer him better than theoretical answers. What's some of your experiences ?
 

claymore

Well-known member
Joined
18 Jun 2001
Messages
10,636
Location
In the far North
Visit site
The nice thing about big powerful long keeled heavy displacement motorsailors is that in heavy weather the motion is very steady and the wheelhouse keeps you dry and warm, both of which help in terms of staying power and decision making.
 

bedouin

Well-known member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
32,541
Visit site
Very evocative Bill, but I think you've missed out the most important information.

It is usually the waves, rather than wind, that gives boats a real problem. 50 knots in the Solent (sheltered) can be good fun (done it!). The same 50 knots (or even 25 knots) trying to go through the needles, wind against spring tide, could be fatal.
 
G

Guest

Guest
There is a danger that a thread like this becomes an exercise in one-upmanship to see who can exaggerate a wind strength the most! And anyway, received wisdom is that it is not the wind strength but the form, size and pattern of waves that is most important. And there is no way easily to measure or describe those on a forum.

Still these are my observations:

The worst wind and waves that I have been in was mid-Pacific. The boat was a Macgregor 65. I don't have the figures for the Macgregor 65 but it is (rather unusually perhaps) a very narrow but lightweight fibreglass design. The wind was very strong, at least a good steady F9 and estimated to be F10 for a time. I don't know the exact windspeeds because all the electrics were wiped out, but it was a steady F9 before they died, and the wind got considerably stronger after that. The tactic adopted was to beat into the wind, mainly because we wanted to get to San Fransisco which was about 900 miles upwind! We had a close reefed main and a small genoa/large jib. The boat was going fast. The day before as the wind was building we had been the logging speeds over 20 knots.

The noise of slamming etc. was horrible, especially down below - a very daunting prospect coming on watch in the middle of the night (there were 4 of us active, taking watches 2 on, 2 off). Helming was very difficult, especially since with electrics gone etc. the compass card was invisible except for a fading head torch. One of the most difficult things was avoiding an inviluntary tack since the genoa was likewise invisible. Primary sensor was wind on cheek, which is not really adequate in those cics. in the dark!

Another hard thing was not being swept away while gripping the wheel when several tons of water landed in the cockpit at a time, as happened on several occasions. My companion on watch, sitting at the front of the cockpit sheltering behind the coachroof, was picked up by one wave and thrown half-over the lee guardrails. Luckily he was clipped on or he would have been washed away. Cockpit was filled with water quite a few times - can't remember how often.

Conclusions: The boat handled it OK, partly because of the boat's length. I suspect the narrow design with large lump of lead at the bottom the keel helped. Sailing into the waves and wind was probably a lot less pleasant than sailing downwind or heaving to, but at least it didn't feel like there was a danger of broaching. An involuntary tack was a real danger and would have been bad news, but that was more a visibility problem.

Apart from that, I've taken my Contessa out a number of times with wind in the 30's gusting up to about 40 knots (the max I've recorded on her). With a No. 4 genoa up she behaves impeccably beating with winds in the 30's. Plenty of windward helm, but we were doing 5.5 - 6 knots close hauled. 3 or 4 other boats (about 34-odd feet long) we encountered on one occasion appeared to be having real trouble getting to windward at more than a knot or two. We were having a fantastic time!
 

Boatman

New member
Joined
18 Jun 2001
Messages
444
Location
Where I am
Visit site
Bill,

As usual a very enlighting insight into a sailing experience, I agree with your statements re what do the numbers actually mean, maybe some of the time they give you an idea other times they are useless.

As for heavy sailing conditions etc I have been caught out twice in Biscay, where forecast was perfect until it all changed. Both times approx F10 with 38/40 knts of constant wind (the gusts were more than 50 knts the instruments stopped there) breaking steep short waves coming in off the Atlantic. Boat, well 2 different light displacement French production boats 32ft, strong crew, and very well equipped (except no storm sails). I would have to agree with you in terms of shallow cockpits although they did drain exceptionally well, neither boats had storm jibs they would have been very useful, the furling foresails had no useable shape and often were a problem.

To answer a number of questions I think are on the FAQ list:

Were the boats problematic? No, at no particular time did they feel excessively pushed.
Lively motion? Yes, and not particularly comfortable, but we could sleep.
Fast? Yes, both boats could be felt to stall at times at maximum hull speed (we had too much sail up)
Breakages? On both occasions, mainsails had to be re stitched in places, plenty of small items down below, calculators phones etc, but the boats held together very well.

Conclusions, I have no particular problems being at sea again in those conditions, provided I have the right crew, on a well equipped boat certainly I would not care to have to endure the same for days on end, both times the duration was about 36 hours till weather changed somewhat, the crew at the end of it all were relieved to be ashore, tired, hungry and after a nights rest wanted to go back for more.

Clearly some boats are better in bad weather than others but there are so many other determining factors as to what is the end result that pure numbers are not the answer, maybe we should start rating the crew on a 1-10 basis.
 

david_e

Active member
Joined
1 Oct 2001
Messages
2,188
www.touraine.blogspot.com
Excellent reading and learning Bill, I concur with your thoughts about this. Actually the more I learn about all aspects of this subject and listen (well read) about the views of the different camps the more I am leaning to a view that it is the sailor and not the boat that can have a bigger influence on safety etc. Lets have more!

Before my Yachting time but wasn't this the type of boat in the TV series Howards Way, and whatever happened to it as a model? How do you think your Maxi would behave in the same situation, appreciate you probably haven't been out in that type of situation yet?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Thank you, that is an interesting post.

Just for the sake of strict accuracy, a wind force is derived from average wind speed, so a wind of 38-40 knots of constant wind would be classified as a F8, not a F10.

Apologies if I have misunderstood you as to what you were saying about the wind speeds, strengths etc.

Also, please describe what your tactics were. Did you try beating into the wind, laying a-hull, heaving to, running, etc.
 

Boatman

New member
Joined
18 Jun 2001
Messages
444
Location
Where I am
Visit site
Simon,

Yes I know the wind speed is a F8, what in my mind made the difference was the short steep breaking waves, something Biscay is famous for and on both trips had ocean yachtmasters who both considered that the waves were our biggest single problem and changed a reasonable situation into something not normal.

The breaking waves, were a very serious concern and if you can imagine being at the helm waist deep in water being only able to see the mast, a 32ft submarine, after a wave has broken over the boat and nearly washed you away then you get the picture. Harnesses were tested to there limit, one crew member (16st) was washed from one side of the cockpit to the other brought up short on his harness.

As for tactics, we tried beating into wind which at times caused massive slamming and the boats were not happy so most of the time we were running, with incredibly exhilarating surfs however this was extremely hard on the person on the helm. Most of the time 20/30 mins on the helm was the most we could cope with before swapping. On both occasions we heaved to for upto ½ hour on a number of occasions mainly to sort out the mess down below, give us a bit of a rest and get some soup down us. The motion of the boat was still extremely violent but better (ie more under control) than while sailing. On the second occasion we tried to trail warps to slow down, it certainly helped but caused the other issue that at time the boats wouldn?t climb the waves and started to slide backwards so we got rid of them fast.

I have often heard that light displacement boats don?t heave to well and don?t go to windward, both these would do both but both had deep keel options and I think it does make a big difference.
 

billmacfarlane

Active member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,722
Location
Brighton
Visit site
Dead right. Which is why I asked for people to describe the sea state as well as the wind speed. The most hairy time I've ever had was coming through the Needles in about 25 knots of wind. Deeply unpleasant.
 

billmacfarlane

Active member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,722
Location
Brighton
Visit site
No my new boat wouldn't have coped in its present state. She only came with 2 sets of reefing points which I'll correct next winter. I test sailed her in a gale , Solent mind you. The company tried to cancel the sail but I insisted. Had a great sail. We also had our maiden sail in 30 knots of wind. There weren't many Barracuda's built. They were the idea of Bob Fisher , a yachting journalist. he wanted a very quick downwind flyer and asked Tony Castro to design it for him for the Howard's Way ( Godawful ) programme. I think he still sails the original boat made out of plywood. I said "think" as he's sunk it twice so far , once off Bembridge Ledge or come to think of it , it might be twice.
 

billmacfarlane

Active member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,722
Location
Brighton
Visit site
It was a chartered boat with the skipper on board. You've got me thinking though. I don't really know what my own insurance policy states , if anything , about setting sail in a gale. Mind you it's not something I'd normally do except perhaps for a short dash along the coast to get home on a Sunday evening.
 
G

Guest

Guest
I reported over supper, this discussion to my wife Laurel. She has almost as much experience of bad weather as I have, certainly of the worst. And she had some observations which she has asked me to post as she wants to watch the film.
First on survival . She reminded me that the depth of the holes in the sea greatly exceed the height of the waves, extraordinary as that may seem. Much research was done on this by the Admiralty in the Agulhas current which is almost as strong as the Gulf Stream and almost always has a contrary wind. The holes in the sea here have caused the total loss of big well-built ships.
The point she is making is that it is possible to damage a yacht more by faling into a hole than by being swept by a wave. It seems as if the whole support for the yacht is swept away and she drops like a stone and no stability curve is worth a damn. And this leads to the fact that in a seaway, the g force which normally works downwards, no longer does so for it depends in which direction the yacht is accelerating.
NOW. we are talking here of ultimate survival conditions that not one in 100,000 yachts will ever experience. It is worse than the southern ocean where the wavelength is long. There is nothing one can do about conditions like these and we pray they never happen.
Nowadays, it should be possible in home waters and Biscay to avoid seas of even half this nature. Weather forecasting has improved immensely. With prudence there should be nothing to fear round the british coat in summer except perhaps in the Pentland Firth, provided the boat is well built and the crew are not tired and are in good heart.
Laurel again:- Have good hot meals. Plenty of stodge. Stews in a thermos. Sweet things to eat. Plenty to drink, preferably fizzy. Skipper, keep the crew's morale high. Chef, keep the bastards fed.

William Cooper
 

gus

Member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
408
Location
Larkhall, South Lanarkshire
www.whysuffer.co.uk
Re: Holes in the water

Bill. The Pentland Firth as you say, may be rough, but the entrance to the Firth of Forth is well known for having extreme conditions in a strong easterly against an ebb tide. There has been many a well found vessel, having sailed thousands of ocean miles, that has come to grief in the 'holes' created in the above conditions. It is sometimes hard to appreciate the effect if you haven't experienced it, but to watch the waves part in front of you as if your middle name was Moses and this hole appear, which could be 10 - 15 feet deep, it is daunting to say the least.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Interesting discussion, particularly as I am finally taking the time to read 'Fatal Storm' by Rob Mundle re the 1998 Sydney Hobart race. There are some excellent descriptions of the chaos and damage inflicted on all the boats in that storm, big old heavy wooden boats as well as light carbon flyers, they all suffered.

I'll quote one of the sections that was pretty hair raising from Solo Globe Challenger (I hope I'm not breaking any copyright laws!):-

There was one wave I will never forget. It was huge and the moment it hit us it skewed us 90 degrees to our course. It picked us up and the boat took off across the face of the wave like it was a surfboard. We were absolutely charging across the face of this wave, like I'm talking about literally thumping across the water like you do in a high performance sailing dinghy.

"But we're in a 43-foot, nine-tonne yacht. It's going whack, whack, whack across the wave, doing 15 maybe 20 knots, and I'm hanging onto the wheel, crouched down, waiting for the wave to break all over us. I'm thinking in a split second, what do I do? Do I try to pull the boat away? Do I let it go straight ahead and try to steady it? Do I try and pull up through the back of it or what? ......I'm crouched down waiting for the water to literally engulf us - that's how big this bastard was - and then suddenly I'm thinking, God I've got no water around. I've got my eyes and mouth closed and there's no water. What's going on?

"I opened my eyes and I looked up and could see the water curling over us. We were literally in the tube of the wave. It was a phenomenal, unbeleivable situation. You could see it breaking over us, and we were just staying out of the break.........


Great time to go surfing!!! Thiis was after they had already been dismasted!

Seriously though the descriptions from the survivors re what went wrong, what equipent failed or worked, why they got injured or didn't is well worth reading. One of the interesting things was how many of them described being tossed overboard by a wave and then being tossed back on by the next wave!

Happy sailing and I hope the coming sailing season up north doesn't bring too much heavy weather for you.

Cheers
 

alant

Active member
Joined
30 May 2001
Messages
37,599
Location
UK - Solent region
Visit site
When those Policemen died coming thru' the needles channel back in 1997, the verdict was that "wind with tide" in that area was the more dangerous (from the mouth of the Yarmouth Lifeboat Cox)
 
Top