Sail or Power

[tome]

Seeing the reference to a sailing boat (Near Collision) I was surprised to read that a sailing vessel which turns on it's engine is considered by some here to be under power.

IMHO a sailing vessel remains that until the engine is put into gear at which time (or even shortly afterwards) she becomes power driven. I've been racking my brain to come up with an explanation why this might not be the case and concluded that any alternative view to mine is deeply flawed. Naturally.

 

[jimi]

Agree

I must admit that I was labouring under the delusion that you would only be power driven if using the engine for propulsion! ( I was going to add "and had a motoring cone up!" but do'nt really want to trivialise the thread!)

Jim

 

[tony_brighton]

I think he approved view is that if you have the engine on you have the near instantaneous manouverability of a motor boat just by pushing a lever - and should therefore count as a motor boat; after all they only give way to us cos we are supposedly less able to maneouvre.

Not sure your proposal for 'engine on but not in gear' floats. Slipping the engine into neutral to claim sailing rights doesn't sound like a good idea.

 

[tcm]

agreed: engine on = motor powered?

I say this since seeing/reading some sailing race thing rtw or whatever where there wa a long debate regading putting engine on and sad ceremony upon starting the motor - not upon putting it into gear.

Not same issue tho not far off... a motor boat can't drop the engien into neutral and aha! claim not to be a power vessel can it?

 

[tome]

Sorry, but can't go with this at all Tony and wonder where your 'approved view' originates.

The simple fact is that starting an engine doesn't turn a sailing boat into a motor boat until you engage gear. If so, it would go against the sailor who's prudent enough to start his engine in neutral just in case he needs it.

Likewise, a boat which is motor sailing can't claim to be sailing simply by slipping into neutral for a few moments. He has to disengage his mechanical propulsion and resume under sail.

The key test for me is what is your actual means of propulsion. It's either sail (with or without an engine ticking over) or power (with engine engaged). Any other interpretation defies logic.

If I was to accept your argument that a sailing vessel with an engine running is merely a breath away from being a power boat and therefore enjoys potential manuoeverability, then why not extend the argument? It takes me seconds to start my engine, so my sailing boat should always be regarded as a power vessel in waiting?

 

[Twister_Ken]

It is a 'fine point' and one designed to make money for lawyers...
-----------
Rule 3

General Definitions


For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
----------

So, pick the bones out of that.

 

[tome]

Stand by my interpretation - the propellor has to be regarded as a key part of the propelling machinery, and if it isn't turning it's not in use

 

[halcyon]

Re: agreed: engine on = motor powered?

That's only a race rule, by not having your engine on, then your certainly not using it.
If you assume any yacht with it's engine on is a power driven vessel, at what range to you apply it, what if it has a quiet engine, if there are a number of yachts in close proximity, how do you determine the power driven one.

Is it not dangerous people using there own interpretation of the col regs.

Brian

 

[Twister_Ken]

So by your interpretation a motorship, under way but without its props turning, is not a power driven vessel?


------


Prosecuting barrister "So immediately before the collision occured, Mr Blenkinsop, was your engine running"

"Yes"

"And was the engine propelling your vessel"

"No"

"What would have been required for your engine to propel your vessel"

"I would have needed to put the engine in gear"

"And by putting the engine in gear, could you have prevented the collision"

"Yes"

"Where is the gear control, in relation to where you were positioned before the collision"

"By my right hand"

"No more questions for this witness, your honour"

 

[yachtcharisma]

Surely the "correct" answer under the coll regs is that if you've also got your sails up, you only become a power driven vessel if you put a motorsailing cone up. We can make up some other rules, such as "if you see smoke from the exhaust", "if you can hear an engine" etc, but none of that has any validity under the regs, which require a cone to be hoisted. I, like everyone else it seems, never do, but I do always feel slightly nervous under sail and engine, aware that I can't really predict whether other vessels will interpret me as power driven or sail driven.

Cheers
Patrick

Sailing a Corribee in Plymouth
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox

 

[Twister_Ken]

If it relies on 'cone up' then no one ever motorsails in the Solent.

Bear in mind too that one's sails can hide one's cone from another vessel.

 

[yachtcharisma]

I agree. I've never seen anyone motorsailing - ie cone up, as defined by the coll regs - around here either. But I still think that's the correct interpretation of the rules. From a legal / insurance point of view I'd expect to be in the wrong if involved in a collision when motorsailing without a cone, just as much as I'd expect to be in the wrong if run down at anchor when anchored without a ball / light.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I stick to those rules myself, just that that's what they are, and I knowingly put myself in the wrong when I don't follow them.

Cheers
Patrick

Sailing a Corribee in Plymouth
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox

 

[Guest]

There was a very long thread on this subject earlier in the year. I happen to agree with you I dont think you can be concidered a power driven vessel unless you have the engine driving the prop. However judging by the length of the last thread that doesn't seem to be everybodies veiw.

 

[halcyon]

Worrying with people sailing around with private interpretations of the col regs.
Does it mean that you have to run with your engine on to dodge them, or are they assuming that everybody is going to give way to them as there engine is not running??????

Brian

 

[tome]

Your interpratation perhaps Ken, certainly not mine. Of course it's power driven - it has no other means of propulsion.

A sailing boat has 2 means of propulsion, and this makes it unique (discounting dinghies with oars/outboards). The engine alone is not a means of propulsion until, via the transmision, it is connected to the propellor. I wish it was - no irksome stern glands, shafts, and all that propellor drag!

 

[Bergman]

Lets try a different tack (sorry)

Q-Why are there Collision Regs?
A- So people don't keep running into each other

Q-How do regulations help?
A-So that in any given situation you know what the other boat is going to do and he knows what you are going to do.

Q-So how do I know if a vessel is a sailing boat or a power driven vessel?
A-If big white flappy things are raised and no cone is visible it's a sailing vessel if not its a power vessel

Q-But what if he has his engine running?
A-But how could you know? Treat him as sailing vessel and all is well, if he reacts as power vessel no harm should be done. If any harm is done it's his fault.

The key surely is not whether engine is running or not but whether other people believe he is a power vessel or sailing vessel, and which he believes himself to be.

You think he is a sailing vessel, he thinks he's a sailing vessel, he is not showing signs of being a power vessel - wheres the problem?

 

[hlb]

What worries me is why he asks the question. Theres no reason I can think of for running the engine out of gear, Less you want to pretend your under sail but sneakily using engine when it suites. Sounds like he just wants to use the rules to his own advantage. Bit sick really.

<font color=red> No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Haydn

 

[halcyon]

It's known as self defence, or how to aviod the chap who does not know or believe the col regs.

It is also known as charging your batteries, it may come as a supprise but yachties enjoy sailing, not motoring, and actually have to charge there batteries.

Brian

 

[Celena]

Medina River, Sunday morning, cone on yacht with NO sails up! But then it was a BOSS boat...

 

[Guest]

Twaddle or what ?????

Being the cautious type ..... I run engine when in close quarters sits, approaching / leaving harbours, marinas etc. etc. when its prudent to have the back-up / safeguard.

Most times its not in gear - but ready to go immedaite that I need it .....

I reagrd myself as basically power driven then ... as I run the engine to be able to manouevre to keep safe. the technicality of whether it actually is when engine is driving prop or not really I ignore ...

OK so my interpretation is maybe strictly not correct - but I know one thing - I will do all to not hit another and if that means he can regard me as a PD vessel - then I will not argue when I should be taking action ...... we can then sit in the bar after and moan about the stupid idiot who .... etc. etc.