Safety equipment

[Sailfree]

I don't want to cause any fred drift to the other thread but need to review my safety equipment.

Once retired I will be sailing down to the Morbian this year for 6 wks. Next year may go further for 3 months and possibly to Spain.

Will only intend to sail during good weather windows but we can all be caught out!.

When I sailed to Spain in 2004 I bought an EPIRB with GPS but when it came to replacing it I bought a PLB with GPS that seemed more useful as I attached it to my LJ.

I know the perfect answer it to have everything but many sail on a limited budget. Most of my sailing will be within 100mls of land. I have a 4 man raft with hydrostatic release serviced annually.

My previous thinking was to buy 2 PLB's with GPS for SWMBO & myself but now wonder about battery life.

Anyone care to offer opinions on the merits of PLB battery life /range compared to an EPIRB?

What do you have if you sail in similar coastal hops? I am not crossing Oceans and intend to err on the side of safety WRT weather.

Like all of you I hope my spending is a complete waste of money but just want to get the benefit of others opinions to assist my decision.

Just notied otherthread discussing this what pLBs have 48hr batteries please?

 

[Tranona]

As has often been pointed out here, the two types of devices are related and complementary. They are not perfect substitutes for eachother, otherwise only one type would exist.

You have to assess which you think is more appropriate for your type of sailing. You could quite easily come to the conclusion that there is a place for both, but you are also likely to come to the conclusion that a PLB has limitations in a situation where you might be in a liferaft a long way from land and an EPIRB the device of choice. On the other hand if you think the biggest danger to you is a crew member falling overboard where help would arrive quickly to rescue the person before they die of exposure or drowning, then make sure they have a PLB with them.

You can find plenty of specific examples of each device being effective - and examples where neither were effective. You can also construct scenarios to support the use of either. However, the only thing that is certain is that the outcome of an event is uncertain. It is also true that the vast majority of people who sail in the way you describe, never get anywhere near finding out which is effective. The the only decision for you is the one that makes you feel the most comfortable.

 

[Martin_J]

As part of your review of safety equipment on board you could do worse than taking a read of the ISAF offshore regulations.

I totally understand that you are not racing but they will give you some extra ideas for sure..

Think about getting your boat/crew/thoughts to Cat 3 perhaps.. then aim for Cat 2...

http://www.sailing.org/specialregs

 

[Robin]

I think the rules for an EPIRB battery is for a minimum 48hr battery life whilst for a PLB it is24, but newer PLBs are quoting more than the minimum, I think I saw 36hrs on one and like with the missing plane transponders, battery life in reality may be entirely different. I also believe the PLB does not have to float, even if waterproof, (if it even can float at all without having additional external flotation gizmos) upright and anyway has to be held vertical for it's aerial to function correctly whereas an EPIRB does that by design.


you have the same questions as I do over here and cruising mostly coastal plus occasionalcrossings to the Bahamas. we are never going to be more that 50 miles offshore and in range hopefully of VHF stations. We have no liferaft on our boat here because they are horrendously expensive and servicing them even more so. we will rely on a 11ft RIB With a 10hp outboard, in davits ready to go and withthe capabilty of zipping to dry land in a couple of hours or less most likely.

 

[Talulah]

My tuppence worth, and it may sound awful is that the worst possible scenario is for one to be lost over board whilst the other survives. So for me it would be an EPIRB for the boat but personal AIS for each of you. (Assuming you have a plotter that displays AIS.)
I have assumed you are taking a partner.

 

[Sailfree]

My tuppence worth, and it may sound awful is that the worst possible scenario is for one to be lost over board whilst the other survives. So for me it would be an EPIRB for the boat but personal AIS for each of you. (Assuming you have a plotter that displays AIS.)
I have assumed you are taking a partner.

Like everything wish I knew more.

I was thinking of two PLB with GPS and go for any with longer battery life. I accept need to manually activate and hold up aerial. If one went overboard couldn't other do a Mayday and request GPS position via CG of the MOB?

I assume AIS is a personal beacon that transmits the GPS. I have Raymarine C120 (C90 at helm)about 10yrs old and on another thread was informed it cannot receive (or be modified to receive )AIS. It has MOB button though

 

[KellysEye]

I would go with an Epirb, a PLB battery lasts 24 hours an Epirb battery over 48. We also carried Inmarsat Sat C which has instant emergency contact with a satellite and is the quickest option but not cheap.

 

[chanelyacht]

From a SAR coordinators' viewpoint, the order I'd put them in would be -

Inmarsat C (if you can)
EPIRB with GPS capability (if necessary, for a MOB person remaining on board can just pull out of the cradle then get on with tracking the MOB)
PLB (pretty hopeless if you go over unconscious).
MF DSC will be quicker than satellite based systems if within an A2 area. (except Sat C)

Tailor to your cruising area - check the declaration of the country you're visiting (A1, A2 or A3) which will give an idea of their distress reception capabilities.

Whatever you get, please register it and make sure your shore contacts are up to date and aware of your plans. Unregistered EPIRBs or MMSI's are a huge problem.

 

[prv]

I was thinking of two PLB with GPS and go for any with longer battery life. I accept need to manually activate and hold up aerial. If one went overboard couldn't other do a Mayday and request GPS position via CG of the MOB?

Not immediately, and not in real time. The PLB system sends periodic updates to Falmouth, who would have to phone or email it through to your local coastguard. Fine for getting a lifeboat into the general area to home on the 121.5MHz signal, not really appropriate for guiding a yacht to a moving target.

AIS broadcasts direct to your boat every few seconds.

Pete

 

[chanelyacht]

Not immediately, and not in real time. The PLB system sends periodic updates to Falmouth, who would have to phone or email it through to your local coastguard. Fine for getting a lifeboat into the general area to home on the 121.5MHz signal, not really appropriate for guiding a yacht to a moving target.

AIS broadcasts direct to your boat every few seconds.

Pete

Exactly.

Just to make sure the old chestnut of "set it off and help will come" doesn't come back, EPIRBs / PLBs do not send a distress in real time. They rely on the next satellite pass to collect the data, and then wait for that satellite to find the next location it can download the message to the LUT / LES(the local earth station). That may be up to 90 minutes.

If you don't have a GPS EPIRB, the position will be doppler originated, and will give the SAR authorities two locations, each with a probable %age. Sometimes the best chance position is obvious, sometimes not so. This again will add a delay while a relay is composed to both MRCCs for the given areas.

Normally on a doppler hit, a second pass hit will be waited for before tasking resources.

In remote areas, the first option will be a Inmarsat relay to vessels nearby (if any) as distance may well preclude any other assets.

 

[duncan99210]

Thought long and hard about this, the way one does when pondering the horrible things that can happen at sea. Our worst thoughts are of the on watch crew going overboard at night on a passage out of sight of land; maximum say of 150 miles offshore. For that sort of emergency, the PLB is the best way of shouting help. We have 2, one on each of our lifejackets, which we habitually when standing watch; we also clip on.

If we were to be faced with a sinking boat, then one PLB would be activated on entering the life raft, the second would be activated when the first ceased to show it was working. That'd give us somewhere in the region of 48 hours cover. Enough one would hope for rescue in waters relatively close to shore.

If, on the other hand, we were making a transatlantic crossing, then there are things to change and add. One would be an EPRIB mounted in the cockpit area, another would be a hydrostatic release system for the life raft. The final thing would be a satellite phone of some breed so that we could talk to land based help to find out what was going on regarding rescue.

All of that presupposes that whatever disaster overtook us would give us enough time to pick up a grab bag and get into the raft. The one thing that I've found is that things can go spectacularly wrong in a very short period of time; from coping with heavy weather to being knocked down with the on watch crew hanging off the end of their lifelines can take less than it takes to read this sentence.

 

[Wandering Star]

I mentioned this a few months ago but I was preparing my boat to sail her back to the UK in June last year, my EPIRB battery had expired by 2 years. I had a replacement EPIRB with me. Removing the old EPIRB I accidentally activated it, I deactivated it within a minute.

About 20 mins later my wife texted me from the UK to tell me Falmouth had received my distress signal, a few minutes after this a neighbour called round to tell my wife he'd also been contacted by Falmouth (even though he wasn't a named contact and I'd never met the guy). Anyway, it all ended ok and I apologised for my mistake. But there was certainly no delayed response in the Rescue Centre - the signal from my EPIRB was processed within minutes and I was was very impressed at the thoroughness of Falmouth.

 

[maby]

Exactly.

Just to make sure the old chestnut of "set it off and help will come" doesn't come back, EPIRBs / PLBs do not send a distress in real time. They rely on the next satellite pass to collect the data, and then wait for that satellite to find the next location it can download the message to the LUT / LES(the local earth station). That may be up to 90 minutes.

If you don't have a GPS EPIRB, the position will be doppler originated, and will give the SAR authorities two locations, each with a probable %age. Sometimes the best chance position is obvious, sometimes not so. This again will add a delay while a relay is composed to both MRCCs for the given areas.

Normally on a doppler hit, a second pass hit will be waited for before tasking resources.

In remote areas, the first option will be a Inmarsat relay to vessels nearby (if any) as distance may well preclude any other assets.

Surely its more a case of "set it off and they will probably come within a few hours, don't set something off and you will almost certainly die."

 

[chanelyacht]

I mentioned this a few months ago but I was preparing my boat to sail her back to the UK in June last year, my EPIRB battery had expired by 2 years. I had a replacement EPIRB with me. Removing the old EPIRB I accidentally activated it, I deactivated it within a minute.

About 20 mins later my wife texted me from the UK to tell me Falmouth had received my distress signal, a few minutes after this a neighbour called round to tell my wife he'd also been contacted by Falmouth (even though he wasn't a named contact and I'd never met the guy). Anyway, it all ended ok and I apologised for my mistake. But there was certainly no delayed response in the Rescue Centre - the signal from my EPIRB was processed within minutes and I was was very impressed at the thoroughness of Falmouth.

Highlights the importance of registering. For UK addresses, I've even sent the police round or used things like LinkedIn to find contacts for people.

 

[prv]

About 20 mins later my wife texted me from the UK to tell me Falmouth had received my distress signal

20 minutes is no big deal in a liferaft, but it's a very long time for a man overboard!

Pete

 

[chanelyacht]

Surely its more a case of "set it off and they will probably come within a few hours, don't set something off and you will almost certainly die."

Agree completely, but there is a common perception that an EPIRB signal is instantly received and acted on.

 

[JohnGC]

From a SAR coordinators' viewpoint, the order I'd put them in would be -

Inmarsat C (if you can)
EPIRB with GPS capability (if necessary, for a MOB person remaining on board can just pull out of the cradle then get on with tracking the MOB)
PLB (pretty hopeless if you go over unconscious).
MF DSC will be quicker than satellite based systems if within an A2 area. (except Sat C)

Tailor to your cruising area - check the declaration of the country you're visiting (A1, A2 or A3) which will give an idea of their distress reception capabilities.

Whatever you get, please register it and make sure your shore contacts are up to date and aware of your plans. Unregistered EPIRBs or MMSI's are a huge problem.

Inmarsat C is new to me.

Is there a small, battery powered "in the water" version? IE The equivalent of a PLB or EPIRB. Or can it only be used from a functioning terminal on a vessel that hasn't sunk?

 

[maby]

Agree completely, but there is a common perception that an EPIRB signal is instantly received and acted on.

It's a process of escalation really, isn't it? If something goes wrong out at sea my forst reaction is to try to fix it. If I can't, I'll turn to the DSC radio or, if there is another boat in sight, I might fire off a rocket... If none of that is possible, and I really feel in danger, I'll try poking buttons on the PLB (don't have sat-phone and really cannot justify for bumming around European coastal waters - always going to be in range of helicopters and will be in range of DSC VHF/Mobile phone most of the time).

 

[Allan]

Like everything wish I knew more.

I was thinking of two PLB with GPS and go for any with longer battery life. I accept need to manually activate and hold up aerial. If one went overboard couldn't other do a Mayday and request GPS position via CG of the MOB?

I assume AIS is a personal beacon that transmits the GPS. I have Raymarine C120 (C90 at helm)about 10yrs old and on another thread was informed it cannot receive (or be modified to receive )AIS. It has MOB button though

I have a C120 at my helm with AIS. I believe it is approximately 10 years old. The AIS unit is by Advansea and also has a USB output.
Allan

 

[prv]

Inmarsat C is new to me.

Is there a small, battery powered "in the water" version? IE The equivalent of a PLB or EPIRB. Or can it only be used from a functioning terminal on a vessel that hasn't sunk?

There is a handheld (chunky mobile phone sized) Inmarsat phone. Splashproof rather than submersible - so probably ok in a liferaft if carried in a sealed bag or box, but not usable from the water.

Pete