RYA Training Feedback

samw

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I am starting this thread in the hope that I can catalyse some interesting debate about RYA course standards and participant feedback process. I have had some interesting email discussion with James Stevens (RYA Training Manager). I am interested in other's views on the subject. My suggestion to James was that the RYA establish a web site through which course participants could feedback on courses attended at RYA accredited schools. These responses could be stored on a database with results, and averaged participant ratings, visible to all interested parties. This might work like the Amazon.com rating system.

James in understandably reluctant to allow unsubstantiated comments to be viewed on a web site that is endorsed by the RYA. His suggestion was that bad schools would be investigated by the RYA. Whilst this ensures the minimum standard I don't feel that it encourages high standards. I think that my recent experience illustrates this.

I have recently attended a coastal skipper course. This was the third RYA training course that I had attended. The previous two (at JSSTA & Faro sailing school) had been very good so I had high expectations. I was not entirely satisfied with my experience on this latest course. There was nothing drastically wrong but I would not recommend the school to anyone else wishing to pursue a course. My main complaint was that we spent the whole week in the home port rather than making passages to the many interesting ports in the local area. I felt that this was because the boat on which we were accommodated was unsuitable to comfortably sleep all the participants on the course. The school has argued that there were other reasons.

On the flight home I spoke to another coastal skipper course participant who used a different school. He had spent barely any time during his course in the home port. This was more in line with my expectations. He, however, was dissatisfied with his course experience for another reason. He felt that his instructor had not pushed him enough.

I had great difficulty choosing between schools to take my course. I was originally interested in a school in another part of the world. It was only after discussion with the RYA training help line that I determined that some bad feedback had been received about this particular school. The school had been investigated and had been found to meet the RYA minimum standard but the lady I spoke to said that she would not choose that school if she were taking a course. I feel that this type of information needs to be made available to people choosing an RYA course.

In general I feel that some sort of feed back process needs to be established to encourage high standards amongst RYA training providers. Ideally results of this feedback would be shared with potential participants to help them make an informed decision between schools. Such a scheme would help the consumer as it would support decision making and would improve standards in the industry. I think it would also help the industry in general by stimulating demand for courses. Apparently the RYA are working on documenting in more detail guidelines on what customers can expect from a course. I think this will be helpful but is not all that is required.

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MacMan

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Agree - good idea !

I would completely support this idea.

I have also had a number of good experiences of RYA courses and would happily give them the positive feedback they deserve (Bisham Abbey Sailing School and Reading Community College)

But recently attended a Costal Skipper Course (A co-incidence?) which was in my opinion a very bad course in a number of ways.

In particular, the instructor had some complete newbie’s in tears on their first day ever on a yacht.

I am sure that if feedback was shared openly about this institution they would either very rapidly improve their game or go out of business.

At the end of my disastrous CS Course I was surprised when they didn’t even offer Feedback forms. (I knew this was standard practice from my other RYA courses)

I contacted the RYA when I returned home and specifically asked for a feedback form. I received an emailed copy of a fax of a feedback form - barely readable.

But at least I did have a chance to give my feedback, which this institution sorely needed.

If the venue that I did my CS does indeed meet the minimum standard the I would have to worry about that standard too.

Surely the anonymous scores - the 1-5 etc could be published if not the text comments?


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Talbot

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Re: Agree - good idea !

Pretty obvious that any company that obviously needs feedback due to their poor performance is also (in the main) the company that makes it most difficult to provide that feedback!

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Cornishman

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I found your post difficult to understand. It was not until I was half way down the rather long item that I discovered that it was a RYA/MCA Coastal Skipper PRACTICAL course. There is a world of difference between that and a Shore Based Theory Course.
Next, you said,
"James in understandably reluctant to allow unsubstantiated comments to be viewed on a web site that is endorsed by the RYA."
The word 'understandably' virtually negates the rest of your suggestion. If you understand James' point of view why do you persist with pushing your idea any further?
However, I agree that a web site with reports from students who have attended either type of course could be useful. Perhaps you could start one? It would have to be independent of the RYA, but you can safely bet that they would read it from time to time, as would other schools.
If the RYA sets a standard for its training centres there are bound to be some which are not as good as others. If you have a complaint about the centre you attended and have reported it to the RYA you can expect something to be done about it.
It sounds very similar to a school in a westcountry port which, as an inspector for the RYA at the time, I had put off the water about 27 years ago for exactly the situation you have described.

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samw

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Sorry the post was difficult to understand. I tried to edit it but I am now unable to do so.

I am trying to present a balanced point of view. I agree with James point that the RYA would have difficulty in presenting unsupported points on its website. I am interested in other peoples views or suggestions of ways to minimise this risk.

Personally I don't think that the issues presenting feedback should prevent the RYA doing something. I think that an RYA supported feedback scheme is going to be more useful in this case than a third party scheme. A critical mass of feedback is required which would be difficult without the RYA requesting feedback from each course participant.

Whether the RYA chooses to adopt a scheme will be based on its view of the risks / costs and benefits. Comments aired through a forum such as this one can help to sway the RYA perception of the balance between pros and cons. I feel there may currently be an opportunity to improve standards in RYA schools. I might be the only person who feels this way.

I think there are many issues with schools that do not justify a formal investigation. I am talking about trying to motivate schools to achieve excellent rather than satisfactory performance by giving customers the information to choose.

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Gunfleet

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That's a very interesting reply, Cornishman. How many schools get 'put off the water' I wonder? How do they get the situation put right? I've only had good experiences on RYA courses and found them led by people with better teaching technique than many trained teachers. I did have a very funny incident once, many years ago doing a dinghy course, when I asked an instructor to show me a rolling hitch. He tried to do one and he couldn't, his mate tried, then another.... of course once you start thinking about knots you get the yips and no-one could do it! Of course I can do a rolling hitch nowdays, but not by thinking about it.

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MacMan

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Cornishman,

With respect and IMHO

I thought the post was fairly straightforward.

In particular isn't there a difference between

1. Understanding
2. Agreement

Isn't that about tolerance? I don't think the RYA not have feedback online is completely mad cap or nuts and can *understand* their position BUT

I disagree with it and think having much more info widely available would let the consumer/RYA member find the best/very good courses (both Practical and Theory) more easily rather than just getting a "guarantee" of ones which scrape over the bar.

To be honest I think they RYA have a (good) brand to protect.

The newbies on my course came away swearing never to do an RYA course again, which is a terrible shame for them, the sport and the RYA.

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Allegro

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Couple of points. As you say, and as Cornishman suggests, it might be a little difficult for the RYA to do, but I think could work ok as an independent site, especially if coupled with, say, a list of all the schools around the coast running practical courses to encourage people to view it.

Secondly, my coastal skipper course didn't really stray outside its home port of Plymouth. The instructor made the point that the techniques you're supposed to be honing are not really those of long passages, more those of passage planning along with close quarter skills - boat handling, blind nav etc. I thought that was a fair point and thoroughly enjoyed the week - and passed the exam at the end.

Cheers
Patrick

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snowleopard

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the problem with publishing people's moans about courses is that some comments may be exaggerated, distorted or untrue. an unscrupulous competitor could even put a rival out of business by posting complaints from lots of mythical customers. a good school that was being attacked in this way would have great difficulty retrieving its rputation and business.

feedback needs to go to the RYA confidentially and there would be no need for anything public if they investigated complaints and responded to the originators. recent threads however suggest that this isn't happening.

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Peppermint

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Re: Yottie training is..

..always a bit of a curates egg. Most training is delivered by small companies and quite small things can effect service delivery and confound best efforts in small companies.

The training experience is a very personal one and the viewpoint of a customer will be coloured by their previous experience both sailing & being trained. You therefore need a large sample to establish trends.

The only fair way to control quality of service delivery is to make feedback records a mandatory part of being an RYA establishment. The results could be tabulated into a digest of strengths and weakness's. Trends could be logged and improvements demanded. I doubt if there's much value in publicising the results though. You could in the broadest terms publish the best in an area or region & overall, that should encourage competition,and drive standards up. The real problems will come as the winners grow, the loosers drop and choice is lost. Dragging everyone up to a good standard is the ideal.


It would be more useful if the RYA tabulated the data. Added in their inspection reports and spotted the trends. Then they should effectively managed standards for everyone.

The more I rub up against the RYA the more it looks to have an impossible task. It is in effect a business. Much of it's revenue comes from training courses delivered by third party providers and it has a duty to promote boating & training. I suspect that the need to regulate and the need to promote are not always comfortable bedfellows.



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Cornishman

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Re: Yottie training is..

.........Much of it's (RYA's) revenue comes from training courses delivered by third party providers ......

How come? Apart from paying their recognition fee to the RYA the third party providers pay nothing else, do they?

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powerskipper

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The RYA schools pay a registration fee annually,
Their chief instructor at that school is responsible for the standard of courses run by that school, All instructors must now hold minimum cruising instructor ticket
[ like a trainee teaching certificate], that is issued by that school or by an RYA course, Lots of schools have only 1 or 2 full time instructors and will contract in other instructors if there own are not available.So if there are any problem first talk to the instructor , then the chief instructor of the school you used and then the RYA.


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samw

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Re: Yottie training is..

In general I agree with your view. I think you have put me off the idea of publishing user comments (like Amazon.com) because, as you say, training is very personal.

I'm not sure that I agree that the RYA should not publish ratings though. If feedback is collected in a robust manner and averaged over time then it provides a useful method to weed out mediocre schools and allow good schools to grow. Surely this is beneficial to overall customer satisfaction.

Release of ratings could be an alternative revenue generator as ratings could be offered only to members. I would join the RYA to get access to such data.

In the business environment, the brand of the RYA has great value. This value is diminished by course attendees that have bad (or mediocre) experiences at RYA accredited training schools. In the business world I don't think that promoting high standards and stimulating demand are conflicting (rather the opposite).

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PhilipStapleton

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Re: Yottie training is..

Please always send feedback to the principal of the sea school when you’ve done a course, even if was good! There’s no other way the school can tell what’s happening on the water. If you’re not happy with the boats or the instructing, tell the school and then tell the RYA – they’re very keen to maintain the reputation of the scheme. In my experience, they’re more on the side of the student than the instructor.
As you concluded, a public rating system on schools wouldn’t really work because your enjoyment and satisfaction depends on your relationship with the instructor, the dynamics of the group of students, your and their expectations and abilities, and the weather! There are some bad instructors, and some bad schools, and the RYA do take action when they’ve got the evidence – but it’s someone’s livelihood, so they need a solid case.


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Solitaire

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Re: Yottie training is..

All RYA recognised schools should have feed back forms to be completed by the students at the end of each course. Schools undergo an annual inspection and the inspection includes reviewing feed back forms. All the schools I work with have such a system in place. The RYA also have been known to do spot checks on courses. In fact during the summer these included on water checks as well!

Additionally, the RYA employ outside performance evaluation companies to check on instructors. I now because I recieved a report thru the post on a course I ran. When and where I don't know. Students were sent a questionaire to rate the course, the school's organisation and the instructor's capability. These were then computerised to come out with an average score.. Both for the school and for the instructor. The course I was assessed on was a VHF/DSC course, but could have been anything.

Most instructors do it not for the money - I can tell you that we will never grow rich doing it - but for the joy of being on the water and sharing it with others. Of course there are bad instructors and you'll normally idientify that by the price of a course. I've been offered work with schools and I won't work for them cause they don't pay the going rate, but those schools till end up getting instructors to do the courses. If you go to the smaller schools then it's likley that you will get the principle/owner of the school (costs may be cheaper here due to local competition or location). Runninng a seaschool is not cheap - the cost of insurance constantly goes up, last year I paid £8 for instructor indemnity insurance - next year it wll be £32!!! Fuel costs have rocketed (I'm power), then there is all the normal costs associated with running any business. On PB level 2 courses, the student instructor ratio is 3:1. But it's not always possible to run to full capacitity, but the instructor still gets his/her daily rate.

For the amount of time and the responsibility involved in running courses and for the instructors, course costs are actually very inexpensive. But that is no excuse for bad instructors . So back to the original issue, fill in the feed back form after any RYA course, if they don't offer it demand it! An do fill it in honestly - praise where you think praise is due and be critical where you think it requires it. I read every feed back form that I get, and there is always something you can learn from them.

Powerskipper has already outlined the complaints procedure.

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Skysail

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Re: Yottie training is..

One piece of information the RYA could release is the percentage of students who actually send in a course evaluation. They do know how many course packs are sent out for Shorebased, and certificates awarded for Practical. I am led to believe the percentage of returns is low, but actually have no way of knowing.

I always ask my students to do it, but have also attended courses where the feedback forms did not make an appearance.

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Solitaire

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Re: Yottie training is..

I can only speak for the courses I run. Most except VHF are all practical and I get all students to fill in feed back forms. I did do a course for one school and they did not have a feed back form - they do now! The sending out of packs is as equally accurate as the sending out of certificates. You don't know how many do not complete a course, particularly say at night school via adult ed or how many of the certificates ordered from the RYA are issued, and over what period.

The only database which exists in my sector is for PWC courses where the certificates are issued by the RYA not by the school on completion of the course.,

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Skysail

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Re: Yottie training is..

Me too - practical and theory. But the number of student theory packs issued is known, and the number of feedback forms returned is known.

The absence of a feedback form is just as significant as a return; if a student does not complete an evening class it also tells us something. Adult Education measures retention of students, does the RYA do the same?

Evaluation of course quality does depend on a valid sample of feedback.

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