RYA / red diesel...half way there

[stefan_r]

Flicking through my RYA magazine last night they relate a story of their success with red in that HMCE have agreed that red as a fuel will continue to be sold (albeit the tax rate will change) and therefore marinas will not have to cleanse/bleach tanks to remove the pigment - important to boaters too as we would undoubtedly have that cost passed on to us either at the pump or with a spike in already high (moan) marina fees.

Unfortunately there is no reference to anything like "the RYA's continuing fight to not have marine diesel taxed at road prices".

I have read the consultation paper and there doesn't appear to be an answer there other than it's all a bit difficult to have tiered pricing, additional revenue is irrelevant and a feeling that this is all a bit of a waste of time - but no indication of a route whereby we can avoid "road tax".

Two questions:
--have the RYA given up?
--does the collective brain cell(s) on the forum have a flash of brilliance about how to avoid road diesel duty rates?

Well aware I may be more successful making a sentence out of "horse"; "flogging"; "dead" than getting the government to to think creatively and support cheap fuel for posh buggers with boats (an inconsequential voting group) who should pay full rate tax on, erm, everything who were lucky to have had reduced tax red and should help stop causing climate change but hey ho...

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

If there is a sudden snap election in the next 6 months then make darned sure that any candidate visiting knows that, for you, its a voting issue.

 

[gjgm]

Gludy pointed me in the right direction, and I did put the link up somewhere- so try a search-, but under EU there is only permitted one level of taxation for non tax exempt fuel (by country). So , its nothing to do with whether its a car or a boat or whatever. In the UK that level of tax happens to be the level set by the GVMT for car fuel. Thats not the Eu s fault, and no one seriuosly thinks the GVMT will reduce the road fuel tax level to suit a few boaters. So, that it.

 

[Gludy]

Thats spot on.
We are a high fuel taxed economy because that is UK policy.

So basically the same fuel has to be charged the same price.
The way around that was not to make it the same fuel as white road diesel but all that is too late now.

The same rule applies to having to match 'off road bio' to 'on road bio' - the EU rule makes it illegal to distinguish betweem them so off road bio shoots up to road bio rate but in Germany both off road and on road bio are duty free. So much for the level playing field.

It does bother me though that during the fight - now lost - the head of the BMI (Mr. Peters) thought thatr it would make no difference - or was his appointment more recent?

I always did thinkl that we would lose the fight.

We have basically ended up with the same old red at two prices and all the problems associated with that are being swept under the carpet.

No if you charter your mates boat - that can use low fuel and if he charters yours that is also low tax fuel but if you skipper yours withoput your maye hiring it - its full road rate fuel ...... so what do you do fill up at one rate one day and another rate the next?

Its seems as long as we obey the stupid rules all is OK - it does not matter that the rules may even work against their own objectives. Its a mad world!!! Ot maybe its just me.

 

[gjgm]

No if you charter your mates boat - that can use low fuel and if he charters yours that is also low tax fuel but if you skipper yours withoput your maye hiring it - its full road rate fuel ...... so what do you do fill up at one rate one day and another rate the next?
********
But we ve been through this before... there may indeed be some convoluted loopholes here and there, but for the majority of leisure users, its all going to be very simple.
Even your income tax is open to fiddling. On the whole it works pretty well, and they make an effort to catch serious abusers. I cant see why our little red debacle need be so different.

 

[Wiggo]

What happened to the conventional diesel vs ULSD thing? Someone was going to find out if anyone on the road wasn't using ULSD, in which case we could have old fashioned diesel at EU minimum duty rates.

 

[Gludy]

I think you are missing the point on the problem with applying the tax - the position seems to be that it is legal one day and not the next. Its not to do with tax fiddles.

I am not suggesting that everyione codes their boats and then charters them all the time - I am pointing out that some of the time you can legally use low tax and other times full road taxed fuel in the same boat.

As regards fuel type - yes we could use olf fashioned diesel and that could have stayed at the low rate and still conform to EU rules - I do not think that point was ever made and yet that may have been the way out. Too late now though.

 

[Wiggo]

Why is it too late, Paul?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

i think the problem in the UK and EU in general is that we have too much tax on fuel
we have what is 200% tax on the pump which is too much

THAT IS TOO MUCH FULL STOP
The people in all levels should protest about this to reduce it

now the UK followed by Italy is the worst for its fuel prices and this should be fixed
the EU should make something about this!!!!
the people cannot keep on paying for keeping these pigs around

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is a sudden snap election in the next 6 months then make darned sure that any candidate visiting knows that, for you, its a voting issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is sweet that you think MP's have any real say on government policy. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Gludy]

I think it is too late because the whole basis of the input to the EU - a public document assumes that the fuel is the same and argues to continue with a special concession. Nobody, the RYA, the MBM etc argues this point. The die is cast.

Of course any government with guts could now clearly establish another class of fuel and then provide that exempt from tax alltogther just like germany with bio - so in that sense it is not too late BUT that requires a government with guts and some vision to see things through and that we do not have.

I watched a 1997 speech of Mr, Brown on Panorama last night - it was about staying in bed not being an option for the youth, we have almost one million uneducated, unemployed youth today. Mr. Brown stated if they did not properly seek work they did not get support - ten years later the youths explained how it easy to keep drawing job seekers allowance forever without even wanting work. I just watch the hypocracy of the system every day ..... I think that is why I like escaping it all in a boat and resent they way they try to even get involved in that.

 

[boatone]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the problem in the UK and EU in general is that we have too much tax on fuel
we have what is 200% tax on the pump which is too much

THAT IS TOO MUCH FULL STOP
The people in all levels should protest about this to reduce it

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think we should double it - make people sit up and take notice and stop using bloody cars so much. Make car builders put some much more economical engine designs into production. Make people live closer to work and not drive such long commutes. Make kids walk to school.

I'll get me coat.......... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[SnaxMuppet]

The way I understand it this...

Firstly, we need to understand that marine fuel is not the same stuff as normal road fuel. Road fuel is Ultra Low Sulpher and that entitles the UK to charge a lower tax rate than non-ULSD. Non-ULSD is charged at a higher rate than ULSD and because marine fuel is non-ULSD then the only tax rate that te government are allowed to charge by EU law is the non-ULSD rate.

That means that if we continue to be able to buy red diesel for leisure boating then the govenment has no option if it is to comply with EU law... it must charge is the higher rate of duty for non-ULSD.

The way around this might be to have all RED diesel to be ULSD. That way, when leisure users pay the duty we can pay the ULSD rate. I don't know if that would satisfy the commercial users or suppliers.

<ON SOAPBOX>
Of course, the REAL issue here is the fact that we are in the EU and so we can not set our own rates of tax and duty nor determine our own laws!
<OFF SOAPBOX>

 

[gjgm]

again, we ve discussed this before. I feel that your view is that if there is a small problem, then its not workable. I say if it holds water for the vast majority of the cases, thats good enough. Maybe one or two smart guys play some game, and maybe one or two guys find life isnt always fair.
Thats how life goes.

 

[Wiggo]

My understanding is that we cannot have two rates for the same fuel: fair enough. There is also a minimum duty that must be charged: fair enough. If all road diesel is ULSD, and all marine/red diesel is non-ULSD, then there is no problem with different duty rates between marine and road, because they are different products. Pigs will fly, of course, before the Govt implements this...

 

[Gludy]

OK - it holds water for the majority - agreed.

It does not hold water for say a charter boat that has an element of perosnal use - tell me how you see that working?

 

[halcyon]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, we need to understand that marine fuel is not the same stuff as normal road fuel. Road fuel is Ultra Low Sulpher and that entitles the UK to charge a lower tax rate than non-ULSD. Non-ULSD is charged at a higher rate than ULSD and because marine fuel is non-ULSD then the only tax rate that te government are allowed to charge by EU law is the non-ULSD rate.

That means that if we continue to be able to buy red diesel for leisure boating then the govenment has no option if it is to comply with EU law... it must charge is the higher rate of duty for non-ULSD.



[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean that we now keep red as it is ?, but now it's not the same as white road diesel, i.e. non-ULSD.

If ULSD road diesel is say 95 p a litre, what is red at the higher non-ULSD tax rate.

Shoot and foot comes to mind.

Brian

 

[Gludy]

Yes if the higher sulpher rate must carry a higher rate of tax by EU rules, then shoot and both feet spring to mind. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

[ QUOTE ]
It does not hold water for say a charter boat that has an element of perosnal use - tell me how you see that working?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't work and the whole system will be open to wholesale abuse. It will be impossible to distinguish between commercial charter use and personal use unless there are armies of C & E inspectors checking engine hours, log books and fuel consumption data against quantity of fuel purchased at the commercial rate. Then there will be a healthy black market in commercial boaters reselling commercial red diesel at a profit, not to mention red diesel finding it's way from agricultural and construction machinery into boats. And I guess there will be fake commercial charter licences available for a few quid at your local seaside pub
It's a complete nonsense to sell red diesel at 2 different prices. It's almost as if the govt is indicating that they are going to pay lip service to the EU directive and turn a blind eye to any abuses

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a complete nonsense to sell red diesel at 2 different prices. It's almost as if the govt is indicating that they are going to pay lip service to the EU directive and turn a blind eye to any abuses

[/ QUOTE ]

A very french attitude but I fear one that is a little alien to HMRC and your typical Brit.

Rick