Running costs and maintenance costs

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Goody

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Hi
I’m a newbie sailor looking to buy my first keel boat. My price range is between 3 and 5 grand. With regard to the answers from a previous post my short list is either a Leisure 23, Seal 22, Westerly Centaur, Hurley 24/70, Etap 23 or Trapper 300.
I have no DIY skills and would like some understanding ( hopefully without putting me off ) of what the running and maintenance costs might be plus any tips for buying my first boat ie what to look out for etc.
Many thanks
 
Have you got your piece of string handy? Some costs are predictable such as berthing/mooring, lift out and in insurance, antifoul. These could be anywhere from £500 pa upwards depending on what sort of mooring you have.

Maintenance depends on the condition of the boat you buy, although it is potentially out of proportion to what you pay for the boat. Some things are essential to replace when they break or wear out, but with others there is a lot of discretion as to when you replace them.

So buying your first boat you should look for one in the best condition particularly expensive items such as engine, sails and rigging. In that price range you will see everything from wrecks to potentially very nice boats. You have a good short list, but do not get hung up with specific designs. If you take to sailing then you will almost certainly move on after a couple of years so try to get a boat that will last you 2 or 3 years with minimal expenditure so you can concentrate on sailing and finding what you like and don't like. This will inform your next purchase.
 
Tranona's advice is very good. Do sort out the mooring situation before you buy the boat - this is typically the biggest "running cost". You can spend a fortune on a marina berth, of course, but a cheap drying mooring for a bilge keeler may not be so very cheap once you have bought a good dinghy, joined a yacht club to have somewhere to store your dinghy and park your car, etc...
 
Minn said:
Assuming that you already have the Range Rover! :rolleyes: My Mondeo can pull a Squib/Hunter Europa but would struggle with a Centaur!
Click to expand...

Plenty of cheap old 4*4s like Pajero's but I take your point you are swiping one set of expenses for another. I did know someone who used to tow a leisure 23 with a modest car though.
 
How long is a piece of string? What you expect? What you can do yourself? What you can do without?
They are all smaller older boats so not high. if you don't expect much comfort or convenience.

Do as much as you can yourself. If you don't know how. Best to learn. Or accept its going to be very expensive. to get someone else to do it.
Moorage is a big one. Again the where and what type makes a huge difference. If you can trailer the boat much cheaper, I always found I don't use a trailered boat much.
 
Sailing (dictionary description) - standing in a cold shower whilst ripping up five pound notes.
 
Some good advice so far on costs, research local moorings providers , clubs etc for the obvious ones.

That said - try to work out what you really need on your boat and buy a good one that has that and nothing else. If you're weekending in good weather, close to home, you don't a whole load of expensive electronics, massive batteries, sophisticated charging regimes etc They will just add extra complexity / cost that you don't need.

DO try and get a good book on maintenance - there are also courses ( e.g. diesel engine maintenance) that will pay themselves back many times over in saved costs.

If you're going to pay for the yard to do everything, you could conceivably end up paying your entire purchase budget every year to have someone polish the hull, varnish the woodwork, antifoul, change oil , impeller etc clean up the inside etc. Shove the boat into an expensive marina and you could spend twice your purchase budget.

Learn some of the simple tasks, just pay when needed and go to a cheap mooring and you could spend under £1000 per annum
 
Where you are will make a difference to many costs. A swinging half-tide access mooring in Chichester harbour is about £260 for a Centaur plus £60? £90? harbour dues. A club berth locally-ish might be £1300, a marina maybe 3 times that. If you take a swinging mooring, there will be additional costs when you need to bring her ashore to do work - no idea about these. At our club the (annual) crane in & out is £100 each way.

Insurance is relatively cheap, although yours with no experience will be more. Mine is ca £150 pa for an old Centaur.

In terms of keeping some of the other costs down, a lot can be achieved secondhand, especially if you can plan ahead or are just plain patient: eg an old but serviceable (and less appealing to thieves) Avon dinghy can be had for £50-£100 or a grp tender for perhaps nearer the ton. Sails can be had secondhand as well as navigation instruments etc.

Antifouling maybe £100 or a bit less annually, especially if you buy off-peak.
Bits that break and need to be replaced..... £0 to ££££;
General annual maintenance: could be £50-£300 pa, plus other major less-frequent costs - I think replacement of all the standing rigging (wires) for a Centaur would be ca £1300, so technically £130 per annum, but who works like that!
Engine maintenance could be as under £50 in any given year, could be £2000+ for a secondhand or £5k for a new replacement inboard.

If you can't or won't do all this yourself, then it will cost and you will need deep pockets.

And then there are the toys...and the improvements...and the...and the... Self-discipline and a budget are needed in this department. Having a spouse to get things past helps keep a lid on this, as does having kids to feed.
 
No doubt you will spend the purchase price of the boat again within two years, probably less.

As Tranona said, get the best maintained boat you can find of the type you want. It may cost more, but it'll save you a fortune.

And as others have said you'll need to develop DIY skills. Apart from the cost of employing professionals there is a huge range of quality between a good professional and those whose only valid claim to the title professional is that they make a living from it. Trouble is you need skills of your own to evaluate them and the work they're doing.

And even then you'll spend far more than you ever thought you would.

Do you maybe not want to consider chartering a boat for a week every now and again? I don't think anyone has ever lost sleep worrying about how a boat they chartered a couple of months ago will fare in that night's storm.
 
mogmog2 said:
Where you are will make a difference to many costs. A swinging half-tide access mooring in Chichester harbour is about £260 for a Centaur plus £60? £90? harbour dues. A club berth locally-ish might be £1300, a marina maybe 3 times that. If you take a swinging mooring, there will be additional costs when you need to bring her ashore to do work - no idea about these. At our club the (annual) crane in & out is £100 each way.

Insurance is relatively cheap, although yours with no experience will be more. Mine is ca £150 pa for an old Centaur.

In terms of keeping some of the other costs down, a lot can be achieved secondhand, especially if you can plan ahead or are just plain patient: eg an old but serviceable (and less appealing to thieves) Avon dinghy can be had for £50-£100 or a grp tender for perhaps nearer the ton. Sails can be had secondhand as well as navigation instruments etc.

Antifouling maybe £100 or a bit less annually, especially if you buy off-peak.
Bits that break and need to be replaced..... £0 to ££££;
General annual maintenance: could be £50-£300 pa, plus other major less-frequent costs - I think replacement of all the standing rigging (wires) for a Centaur would be ca £1300, so technically £130 per annum, but who works like that!
Engine maintenance could be as under £50 in any given year, could be £2000+ for a secondhand or £5k for a new replacement inboard.

If you can't or won't do all this yourself, then it will cost and you will need deep pockets.

And then there are the toys...and the improvements...and the...and the... Self-discipline and a budget are needed in this department. Having a spouse to get things past helps keep a lid on this, as does having kids to feed.
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What an excellent answer!

I think its very important to be quite "strict" with yourself when looking for a boat.

Just as a check list:

1. Is the boat clean and are her sails and gear clean and does the cabin smell fresh? - this suggests that she has been well cared for and used regularly.

2. Are the sails reasonably "crisp"? If so, they will have a lot of life left in them.

3. If afloat, will the engine start and run easily?

4. What comes with her - sail cover, cockpit cover, fenders, compass, echo sounder, boat hook, dinghy and launching trolley, road trailer, winter cover?

If all the above seems present and correct, she's almost certainly OK.

An old rule of thumb is that the cost of maintaining and running a boat doubles with every five feet in length.

If you keep buying her "presents", the cost rises even faster!
 
Take some time looking and buy the best maintained boat that you can find. There are plenty of people who really look after their boat, have a maintenance schedule, service or replace things before they break etc. You want to be buying their boat. Everyone on this forum will agree that you don't get the money you spend on a boat back when you sell her. The flip side is that when you are buying a boat you get their "money" instead. It is much cheaper to buy a good boat that has had the work done, than to buy one needing work and do it yourself.

I would certainly prioritise a good engine, the entire installation really, fuel tank, prop shaft etc. The cost of a replacement engine will likely be more than the boat and certainly more than you would want to spend on an old boat.

Sails and standing rigging are certainly expensive, but they are bearable, especially done over several years. In the years I have owned my Macwester 22 I have replaced the standing rigging (£500 DIY) , a new genoa (£450) and a new main (£700).
 
Are you in a club? If not, it is worth joining and hopefully getting some experience or just asking for a tour on a range of boats - most owners I suspect will be happy to show you round and it might help you decide what you do and don't like in terms of layout/facilities etc.

Club facilities are likely to be cheaper than commercial ones - mooring/berth power, slipway, pressure washers etc.

The trouble with chartering now is that there's not a lot under 30' and a couple of weeks' fee is his budget...
In the old days, we chartered a Hunter 23 & a Centaur & I couldn't find anything close when we were getting back into it a couple of years ago.
 
mogmog2 said:
Are you in a club? If not, it is worth joining and hopefully getting some experience or just asking for a tour on a range of boats - most owners I suspect will be happy to show you round and it might help you decide what you do and don't like in terms of layout/facilities etc.

Club facilities are likely to be cheaper than commercial ones - mooring/berth power, slipway, pressure washers etc.

The trouble with chartering now is that there's not a lot under 30' and a couple of weeks' fee is his budget...
In the old days, we chartered a Hunter 23 & a Centaur & I couldn't find anything close when we were getting back into it a couple of years ago.
Click to expand...

+1.

Just to encourage you, here's the budget for the Squib that I just bought - the numbers would be exactly the same for a Hunter Europa:

Club mooring (officially "half tide" but actually there is a metre at LAT) - £250
Insurance - £72
Antifouling - £30
Launch and recovery (club slip, hoist and trolley) £20 each way
New spinnaker halyard: £17
 
Minn said:
+1.

Just to encourage you, here's the budget for the Squib that I just bought - the numbers would be exactly the same for a Hunter Europa:

Club mooring (officially "half tide" but actually there is a metre at LAT) - £250
Insurance - £72
Antifouling - £30
Launch and recovery (club slip, hoist and trolley) £20 each way
New spinnaker halyard: £17
Click to expand...

The sort of boat the OP is looking for had an engine - so need to budget for oil / filters / impellor change every year, coolant if indirect. Maybe another £100 if done DIY.

New person will also need to budget membership of a club and may need to pay extra for dinghy storage - COuld be from £100 to £500 or more depending on the club.
 
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