running backstays - how much tension?

[seaspirit]

We have recently bought a Vancover 28 - Cutter rigged with in-line spreaders - forward and aft lower shrouds, permanent backstay and running backstays.

Can anyone tell me how I judge the amount of tension to put on the running backstays? in different wind strengths? to windward or downwind?

Where can I find out more detailed information? I've tried the Sledon "hints and advice" which just says they are needed and the windward one must be under tension.

Does anyone have advice on the best routines for tacking or jibing with running backstays?

 

[sailorman]

i have "check stays" & have a 4 part tackle with cam cleat.(similar to a main sheet arrangement )
i only use tension that can be hand applied.

 

[Blueboatman]

This advice is not specific to your Vancouver 28...
Tension. There has to be enough tension that upwind the mast is either straight or a gentle fair curve when viewed with your eye from about the level of the boom up along the sailtrack and mast side .There should be no hard ''pumping'' of the mast where the runners attach to the mast ,whenever you fall off a wave etc. Too much tension beyond that and it may just become difficult to set up each running backstay lever smoothly and easily-if you have levers- with just your arm strength instead of your whole body weight on it as you tack or jibe. Maybe the Vancouver setup uses modern blocks and tackle with jammer cleats ? That would be less critical and more forgiving...
Tacking...What I used to do was to tighten the leeward runner loosely as much as one could before tacking... ,tack through the winds eye,with a hand on the leeward(soon to be the new windward) lever and set it tight as soon as the belly of the mainsail began to flap..then smartly release the other .It is easier the tighter the mainsheet is cranked up,as of course as soon as you have set the new runner it is time to release the jibsheet(now aback) and crank in on t'other jib sheet . For this I used to then usually have to luff up briefly as the sheet winches were a bit feeble and you are never going to be as smart with the sheets as other boats that do not have to set runners first.
Jibing is the same really,but you are aiming to MINIMISE the shock loading on the mast as the boom comes over(Why ? Because there is going to be a period when both runners have to be slack)..,so firstly , gently release the windward runner and thensheet in the mainsheet as much as you can,and continue to sheet in until the boom bangs over and then ,if you are really nippy you can set the new windward runner at that exact moment when the mainsail is jibing -if you aren't quick enough,the downward pull from the taught mainsheet will support the mast anyway but it wobbles about more and you can ease the sheet out only once that runner is set up.
If not comfortable with jibing ,spinning the boat through a tack may well be more prudent ,particularly if short handed in a breeze.
Loose runners can flap around and LOVE to get hooked around the spreaders,so always ,as I have said,start to set up the new windward runner before you actually tack ! I have succesfully used 10mm bungee cord hooked to each runner about 3 metres off the deck and led down the mast through small blocks to act as securers to help prevent this.
Takes longer for me to try to explain the tacking set up process than it will for you to do ! Even easier with 2 people or autopilot/windvane.

I am not familiar with the Vancouver 28 ,it may be that it was only ever intended to use the runners when sailing/running hard with one reef and the inner jib ?

 

[Talbot]

How do you manage if you are singlehanded? Other than moving around like the proverbial blue assed fly?

 

[sailorman]

A/H 6000 easy init /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Blueboatman]

Re TALBOT ''How do you manage.."
Blue Arse Fly would have been a very apt name for my first boat !

 

[alex_rogers]

When I bought my Vancouver 28, I was told by Northshore that the running backstays are really only needed once you have a reef in. Without a reef, I don't bother with the backstays and when I do use them I just pull them tight by hand whilst there is no load (i.e. whilst tacking or whilst the headsails are blanketed).

 

[seaspirit]

many thanks for your replies - much appreciated.

 

[William_H]

Sea sprit as related running backstays may be vital for the safety of the mast or may be just a go fast extra. In any event only when the rig is under load with lots of wind do you need to really worry about running backstays. The secret is in watching the mast bend and also the inner forestay sag. When the forestay sags it effectively puts more cloth into the sail hence more camber just when you want it flat in a blow. Runners will tighten the inner forestay while backstay will tighten the forestay. I would suggest that the importance of the runners is based more on the size of the jibs on and the windstrength not so much on whether you have a reef in the main.
If you don't like having runners they can be dispensed with. By having aft swept inner sidestays attached at the same point as the inner forestay. The more aft sweep the more support given (as in runners) however the more chafe you get on the mainsail when it is swung out when running.
More aft sweep of the sidestays is acheived with new chainplates so a bit of carefull design change needed.. PS you may as well move the lower stays back also if you move the upper intermediate side stays. Amove aft in the order of 30 cms should do it. but get more advice here.
When I first got my boat the first thing I did was remove the runners. A fractioal 21ft mainly hard raced, now after 3 broken masts (none related to lack of runners) and 25 years it still goes well without runners. regards olewill

 

[joeh]

hi wil
do u think existing aft lowers are a sufficient counter to a inner forestay attached to the mast at roughly the same place ?

 

[ditchcrawler]

My first small gaffer had runners for downwind sailing & when gybing I always pulled the leeward runner in with the boom,holding or cleating the boom in the middle(or near to) whilst tightening the runner ,letting off the old windward one then completing the gybe.
In later years I sailed a 45ft racing boat in quite a few regattas & the same thing was done,however we had one crewman who did nothing but handle the runners which were lead to huge winches on the aft coaming.Cleating the main in the middle of the gybe on a boat that size in a real blow was quite nerve racking at times as it required good timing & coordination.

 

[Mirelle]

Look up the aft face of the mast. Seriously!

The mast should be "in column" i.e. straight unless it is an officially bendy one which I don't think the Vancouvers's is. (And even officially bendy ones come to no harm by being straight - you just lose mainsail shape.)

Sight up the track, under way, and adjust the tension on the runners until the mast is straight.

Do this two or three times under different sea and wind conditions.

You will then know how much tension to put on the runners "by feel" without needing to look again.

 

[William_H]

Re: Look up the aft face of the mast. Seriously!

Hello Joeh the ability of the aft lower stays to counteract the load of an inner forestay is dependant on the geometry of firstly the inner forestay. if it is close to the mast it will have less pull forward of that point in the mast than if it were well forward. In the same way the lower side stays will have more pull aft if they are attached on deck further aft of the mast than if they are near the mast.
So it seems to me if your inner forestay is mounted on deck say 2 metres ahead of the mast. Then perhaps the side stays should be some comensurate distance aft of the mast.
What is commensurate distance. Well you have 2 stays pulling back so perhaps half the distance might seem right. However of course you have the stiffness of the mast ie the force of the backstay also pulling back.
So perhaps something less than one metre aft of the mast. That is the chain plates need to be a little less than 1 metre aft of abeam the mast.
Now I think you would find 1 metre aft to be too much interference with the mainsail when running and you might want less.
you could have additional aft intermediate stays which can be set up to high tension with a high field lever so that they are only released when you are running and want to avoid chafe. No I have not seen it done maybe someone else has seen it. It would be a compromise between normal runners and fixed aft intermediates. It would certainly be good if your inner forestay was only meant to be used with a storm jib in really heavy weather.
Anyway best you look at other boats especially cutters to see what distance aft of the chainplates is used. Or get a rigging specialist to do some calculations. Ultimately the mast must be kept straight in column unless you are going for mast bend to give correct shape to the main in a blow. regards olewill