Running backstays for a newbie

[D1bram]

Hi, I've sailed small cruisers since I was a child, following a gap of 15 years or so I dipped my toe back in a few years back. All gone well so far.

As my cruiser is out of the water this summer for a total refit, I got tempted by and then eventually bought an old mini-tonner being sold in our club.

She's a bit rough around the edges, but crucially has good rigging and sails and is ready to go. Plan is for a bit of mid week racing and the odd evening pleasure sail (weekend being kept for the refit).

I've raced occasionally over the years and know what I am doing with most of the bits of string, except the runners. Well I know generally how they work, but could do with a bit of a guide, having searched youtube and not found anything useful

 

[veshengro]

First a declaration. I have no knowledge or experience of racing under sail or the technicalities of modern yacht rigging. I did rig my own 12 ton steel Gaff Cutter myself, using 6 strand galvanised wire with rope heart, purely because I could splice it for fitting rigging screws and thimbles etc:

I did fit running backstays and they worked very effectively for the 10 years I sailed the boat singlehanded..
Initially I did consider fitting Highfield Levers, which you probably know were widely used on racing yachts big and small from the 1930's onwards, but they were expensive and I thought that another method of tensioning the backstays would work just as well.

My backstays were 6mm galvanised wire and in length they spanned from mast band to about 5 feet above the deck at the forward end of the cockpit coaming. I spliced a thimble in the end of the wire pennant and attached a Gun Tackle, ( two single sheave blocks, one top the other bottom) The bottom block was shackled to the deck alongside the cockpit. To tension the backstay I hauled on the fall of the tackle and turned it up on a cleat. The lee backstay was left slack. Obviously tacking down wind, I just slacked away the weather stay and hauled in the lee side as the boom and gaff came across the centre line of the boat.

As I was never racing, and unless in the occasional flap... I found my system worked really well. I imagine at this point professional racing folk are holding their heads and sobbing, but such is life.
One alteration I did make was to cure the annoying fact that with the boom well over to one side, the lee backstay tended to flog against the belly of the mainsail, the wire pennant and single block beating against the sail. I cured this by rigging a 10mm bungee cord from the pennant thimble running forward to a point on the toe rail near the main rigging. The result being that when I slacked either of the backstays the bungee pulled it forward under tension and kept it away from the sail.

A long winded post, possibly of little use although it may give you some ideas. Hopefully someone with racing experience and more modern ideas will be along shortly, as will others busy Googling at the moment.

 

[Wansworth]

First a declaration. I have no knowledge or experience of racing under sail or the technicalities of modern yacht rigging. I did rig my own 12 ton steel Gaff Cutter myself, using 6 strand galvanised wire with rope heart, purely because I could splice it for fitting rigging screws and thimbles etc:

I did fit running backstays and they worked very effectively for the 10 years I sailed the boat singlehanded..
Initially I did consider fitting Highfield Levers, which you probably know were widely used on racing yachts big and small from the 1930's onwards, but they were expensive and I thought that another method of tensioning the backstays would work just as well.

My backstays were 6mm galvanised wire and in length they spanned from mast band to about 5 feet above the deck at the forward end of the cockpit coaming. I spliced a thimble in the end of the wire pennant and attached a Gun Tackle, ( two single sheave blocks, one top the other bottom) The bottom block was shackled to the deck alongside the cockpit. To tension the backstay I hauled on the fall of the tackle and turned it up on a cleat. The lee backstay was left slack. Obviously tacking down wind, I just slacked away the weather stay and hauled in the lee side as the boom and gaff came across the centre line of the boat.

As I was never racing, and unless in the occasional flap... I found my system worked really well. I imagine at this point professional racing folk are holding their heads and sobbing, but such is life.
One alteration I did make was to cure the annoying fact that with the boom well over to one side, the lee backstay tended to flog against the belly of the mainsail, the wire pennant and single block beating against the sail. I cured this by rigging a 10mm bungee cord from the pennant thimble running forward to a point on the toe rail near the main rigging. The result being that when I slacked either of the backstays the bungee pulled it forward under tension and kept it away from the sail.

A long winded post, possibly of little use although it may give you some ideas. Hopefully someone with racing experience and more modern ideas will be along shortly, as will others busy Googling at the moment.

Dont you need three or four men to bring the runner back prior to a tackle

 

[DownWest]

Dend to think these were more for gaff rigs, where fixed backstays were not practicle, due to the tall gaff and lower mast height.With a modern bermudan rig, and slightly more advanced materials, not used now

The trade off between the angle of the main shrouds aft, more, equalls better support for the mast, but limits the angle that the boom can go out. Too little increases the tension and loads on all the gear.
So, running backstays solved the problem, but were a hassle to use.

 

[veshengro]

Dont you need three or four men to bring the runner back prior to a tackle

I've sent that off to Bletchley Park for deciphering..

 

[Wansworth]

I've sent that off to Bletchley Park for deciphering..

I was attempting mild humour in reference to sailing a J class

 

[KevinV]

Interesting that you even have running backstays - my mini-tonner, that was extensively raced (not by me) makes do with an adjustable backstay

 

[veshengro]

I was attempting mild humour in reference to sailing a J class

The Penny finally dropped. Yep, send for some more of those paid hands to lay aft, we're going about Jeeves..

 

[mrming]

Assuming the rig needs the runners, and assuming they won’t need winching on a mini tonner…

Always have the windward runner on tight in any kind of breeze.

When tacking upwind dump the windward runner as the boat luffs up, and pull on the leeward one.

Before you bear away and ease the main, make sure the leeward runner is off and free to run.

When sailing downwind in any kind of breeze also keep the windward runner on. When gybing you’ll need to loose the windward one before the boom goes over, and tighten the other immediately after the gybe.

On some rigs the runners are critical and the mast will break if you don’t attend to them. On others they’re more like a turbo for tightening the forestay. If you can find someone who raced IOR in the 80s they’ll be able to tell you what you have. If not, post a photo on here.

HTH!

 

[Laser310]

mast head rig with in-line spreaders?

 

[michael_w]

Having sailed with noodle masts, in-line spreaders, jumper struts etc, remember when tacking the mainsail will hold the mast up. Gybing is a matter of careful timing.

My First Class 8, had runners and swept back spreaders, On a gybe, sailing double handed I used to handle 7 different lines whilst steering with my knees. Simples!

 

[wombat88]

Highfield levers anyone?

 

[D1bram]

Assuming the rig needs the runners, and assuming they won’t need winching on a mini tonner…

Always have the windward runner on tight in any kind of breeze.

When tacking upwind dump the windward runner as the boat luffs up, and pull on the leeward one.

Before you bear away and ease the main, make sure the leeward runner is off and free to run.

When sailing downwind in any kind of breeze also keep the windward runner on. When gybing you’ll need to loose the windward one before the boom goes over, and tighten the other immediately after the gybe.

On some rigs the runners are critical and the mast will break if you don’t attend to them. On others they’re more like a turbo for tightening the forestay. If you can find someone who raced IOR in the 80s they’ll be able to tell you what you have. If not, post a photo on here.

HTH!

Cracking reply, thanks!

 

[D1bram]

Thanks for all the input, very helpful.

To illustrate further, she is a Rob Humprheys one off, built in 1976 called Shamm.

Now, I suspect her glory days are behind her, but she will ideal to teach me to play with bits of string more than I need to on my Hurley 27 cruiser.

Previous owner (who is in the same club) is happy to assist with rigging and has offered to come out for a sail with me, but we are both busy people and hate to pester about a boat he sold me for next to nothing... so I'm going to launch her and get her rigged myself as far as I can.

She originally had a keel stepped needlespar (I think) mast which was snapped due to a failed runner a couple of years back.

She now has a deck stepped Sonata rig which I understand to be very close to the original mast height, but much stiffer. Previous owner reckons that the runners are not really needed anymore, but he put them on as belt and braces and heavier weather, he suggested I remove them for my first season. I think I will keep them on however.

I do understand that the new rig might not offer the same performance she once had, but as said, I have her to learn and just have some fun.

 

[mrming]

The Sonata doesn’t have runners, so if the geometry of everything is the same you shouldn’t need them. If the spreaders have been exchanged for less swept back ones, then I would keep the runners.

 

[Laser310]

If it's a masthead rig with inline spreaders, the runners (assuming they go to the top of the top of the mast, and there is not also a fixed backstay) are not only there to keep the rig up. They are the primary control on headstay tension, and proper tensioning will give you the optimum headsail shape across different wind speeds.

increasing the tension will reduce the headstay sag.

Obviously, they can also de-power the main.., but I figured you know this.

 

[mrming]

If it's a masthead rig with inline spreaders, the runners (assuming they go to the top of the top of the mast, and there is not also a fixed backstay) are not only there to keep the rig up. They are the primary control on headstay tension, and proper tensioning will give you the optimum headsail shape across different wind speeds.

increasing the tension will reduce the headstay sag.

Obviously, they can also de-power the main.., but I figured you know this.

It's a Sonata rig, so I assume it's fractional with swept back spreaders, unless it's been substantially reconfigured.

 

[D1bram]

Yep, fractional with swept back spreaders. Was down the club having a potter about on her last night (still on the hard) and chatted with the previous owner, he reckons I should leave them connected to the mast, but just tie them off at the mast base for now, only consider using them in very strong winds.

Hoping to launch her next week around wind/tides/work - can't wait!