Solitaire
Well-Known Member
Can happen to the best of them!. It's a video file - 6mb!
Rough water handling!
- Thread starter Solitaire
- Start date
Magnum
RIP
Ouch. Apart from not being there what could they have done to reduce the risk of capsizing?
Solitaire
Well-Known Member
Given it's a beach launch its very difficult - would have been perhaps better to take waves at an angle to lengthen distance between each wave, but you've got heavy breaking surf. Also good throttle control, power up wave and take power off early so you don't take off over the top. Easy to comment from a keyboard as helm can only asses the situation. It did seem to me that they were taking the waves a bit to head on, but of course with taking it at angle you also stand a chance of being rolled and again power is the key.
Lack of power is not going to be a problem with you! You'll have power to get out of trouble - like a car, you can use the power to get out of trouble, not just for going fast!!
I hear that all is moving forward according to plan. Saw Pete last week.
Lack of power is not going to be a problem with you! You'll have power to get out of trouble - like a car, you can use the power to get out of trouble, not just for going fast!!
I hear that all is moving forward according to plan. Saw Pete last week.
Dave_Snelson
Well-Known Member
Hmm - the sinking feeling was actually in the pit of my stomach, as well as the rib. The water state reminded me very much of my trip from Porthmadog to Pwllheli last November. Clearly I was not close in shore as they were and when you look at the vid, you can see that the deeper water becomes more viable and workable. We had 15nm of that stuff!
Your assesment regarding taking the waves at an angle was precisely my decision on that horrible day. I decided to "quarter" CI to the wind / waves and to ignore the direct route into Pwllheli. To take a straight line would have had us beam on all the way. We deliberately overshot Pwllheli by about a mile and then turned to have the waves running from astern - and then we went surfin'. It was the only fun part of the trip. That video brought back a strange, frightening and uneasy feeling.
Your assesment regarding taking the waves at an angle was precisely my decision on that horrible day. I decided to "quarter" CI to the wind / waves and to ignore the direct route into Pwllheli. To take a straight line would have had us beam on all the way. We deliberately overshot Pwllheli by about a mile and then turned to have the waves running from astern - and then we went surfin'. It was the only fun part of the trip. That video brought back a strange, frightening and uneasy feeling.
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
more weight over the bow? not that I'd be volunteering to hang over the front.
zeros
Well-Known Member
would an inboard diesel rib be better? I know that throttling over the waves wouldn't have been as good but with the weight more central and not hanging over the back this srely would have been better?
BSJ2
Well-Known Member
seems like pilot error to me? more weight on bow needed. also looked like rib badly balanced from start . bow seemed high right at start of footage? were they training or on real shout?
guernseyman
Well-Known Member
Definitely needed to distribute weight more evenly over the length - no need to overhang the bow. I cannot think of any circumstances in which it pays to have more weight in the stern. Conventionally some people think it's a go-faster scenario but they are mistaken: it increases drag and it's thus a go-slow.
Sometime you can improve handling by reducing weight and making more than one trip.
Sometime you can improve handling by reducing weight and making more than one trip.
guernseyman
Well-Known Member
Oh, it would also be a good idea to get everybody to lie down or crouch to lower the centre of gravity.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
If you study the video this is not a weight issue.
The problem is with the boat, a rib is designed to float over the wave instead of through it.
The wave is so Sharpe/steep the boat is almost vertical and then the wave breaks 3/4 towards the bow and pushes the boat over.
No amount of weight on the bow would have helped ( unless the tubes were deflated and the bow allowed to stuff into the wave.)
The crew were truly brave but this was the wrong boat for these conditions.
Had the boat been allowed to stuff in I expect the crew would have been washed out.
The old design of an enclosed bow and a banana shape hull is what used to be used for these beach launches but the boats were too slow.
The problem is with the boat, a rib is designed to float over the wave instead of through it.
The wave is so Sharpe/steep the boat is almost vertical and then the wave breaks 3/4 towards the bow and pushes the boat over.
No amount of weight on the bow would have helped ( unless the tubes were deflated and the bow allowed to stuff into the wave.)
The crew were truly brave but this was the wrong boat for these conditions.
Had the boat been allowed to stuff in I expect the crew would have been washed out.
The old design of an enclosed bow and a banana shape hull is what used to be used for these beach launches but the boats were too slow.
mjf
Well-Known Member
Interesting video - bringing it home would a test of faith too!
Seemed to me that there were too many aft , too little power used, and as someone said, I would have come off the wind/waves a bit too.
You could see it was going to happen........
Seemed to me that there were too many aft , too little power used, and as someone said, I would have come off the wind/waves a bit too.
You could see it was going to happen........
ArthurWood
Well-Known Member
I fell asleep waiting for it to load on hi speed cable /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Coupe
Well-Known Member
Jeez thats scary.
Were they setting out to rescue someone?
Brings it home to you what these guys have to put up with.
Anybody read the article on inside cover of YBW - very brave men indeed.
Were they setting out to rescue someone?
Brings it home to you what these guys have to put up with.
Anybody read the article on inside cover of YBW - very brave men indeed.
Nautical
Well-Known Member
Very easy to be a desk jockey and pass comment on what went wrong.
Sometimes things just happen as you are operating outside the limits of the vessel, would agree that probably the wrong boat for that situation but then again you can'nt have a boat for every eventuality so you have to rely on skill and in many cases sheer bloody luck to get you through.
Have to hand it to them you need guts to set out in those conditions but often guts / deterimation are not enough, everything just conspires against you no matter what you do.
Would say if I were there I'd have probably ducked and weaved a bit and ran a bit accross the weather in the throughs and then taken the big ones at 45 degrees rather than hammer head on still no gaurrantee, probably would have flipped you broadside.
In the end the helmsman has make his own call and knowing these guys they are very experienced and receive hundreds of hours of training in this stuff, guess it was just one big'un too far.
Sometimes things just happen as you are operating outside the limits of the vessel, would agree that probably the wrong boat for that situation but then again you can'nt have a boat for every eventuality so you have to rely on skill and in many cases sheer bloody luck to get you through.
Have to hand it to them you need guts to set out in those conditions but often guts / deterimation are not enough, everything just conspires against you no matter what you do.
Would say if I were there I'd have probably ducked and weaved a bit and ran a bit accross the weather in the throughs and then taken the big ones at 45 degrees rather than hammer head on still no gaurrantee, probably would have flipped you broadside.
In the end the helmsman has make his own call and knowing these guys they are very experienced and receive hundreds of hours of training in this stuff, guess it was just one big'un too far.
guernseyman
Well-Known Member
The boat is lifting at the bow at every wave. Not sure why so much. Maybe the wind catching the already raised bow. Evenly distributed weight would counter that as well as the impulsive lift from the wave.
RogerRat
Well-Known Member
Great film. I think they found the absolute limit of the RIB in this case. I would point out though, from filming big surf on windy days the camera lies and in fact that sea was huge! It was probably twice the size that it looked. I don't know how long the RIB was but the waves matched its length. As they got airborne the wind was holding them up as it does a waveboard and made it appear to be very stern heavy or bow light. I wouldn't have tried and turn away from the wind at all... Too Hairy!
Solitaire
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Very easy to be a desk jockey and pass comment on what went wrong.{/quote]
Agree and it's just what I said.
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes things just happen as you are operating outside the limits of the vessel, would agree that probably the wrong boat for that situation
[/ QUOTE ]
It was an Atlantic perhaps the best seagoing rib available at the time.
[ QUOTE ]
Would say if I were there I'd have probably ducked and weaved a bit and ran a bit across the weather in the troughs and then taken the big ones at 45 degrees rather than hammer head on still no guarantee, probably would have flipped you broadside.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, again is what I said. Trouble is the breaking waves don't give much room for manoeuvre.
The sequence was taken off Whitstable. the Atlantic 21 class lifeboat "British Diver" launched to assist a number of angling dinghies off Herne Bay, which had been caught out by a sudden deterioration in the weather. Where they capsized is about the line of chart datum, so water depth would have been around 5½ metres. When there are NE gales, it draws the waves into a very short, steep dumpy type wave, which are relatively short and pretty destructive.
The Atlantic 21 is now being replaced with Atlantic 75 which has a bow tank which can pick up and dump water. There is also the new Atlantic 85 as well!
Both the 75 and 85 would have coped far better than the 21 due their increased hull length.
Very easy to be a desk jockey and pass comment on what went wrong.{/quote]
Agree and it's just what I said.
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes things just happen as you are operating outside the limits of the vessel, would agree that probably the wrong boat for that situation
[/ QUOTE ]
It was an Atlantic perhaps the best seagoing rib available at the time.
[ QUOTE ]
Would say if I were there I'd have probably ducked and weaved a bit and ran a bit across the weather in the troughs and then taken the big ones at 45 degrees rather than hammer head on still no guarantee, probably would have flipped you broadside.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, again is what I said. Trouble is the breaking waves don't give much room for manoeuvre.
The sequence was taken off Whitstable. the Atlantic 21 class lifeboat "British Diver" launched to assist a number of angling dinghies off Herne Bay, which had been caught out by a sudden deterioration in the weather. Where they capsized is about the line of chart datum, so water depth would have been around 5½ metres. When there are NE gales, it draws the waves into a very short, steep dumpy type wave, which are relatively short and pretty destructive.
The Atlantic 21 is now being replaced with Atlantic 75 which has a bow tank which can pick up and dump water. There is also the new Atlantic 85 as well!
Both the 75 and 85 would have coped far better than the 21 due their increased hull length.
Nautical
Well-Known Member
Whole heartedly agree, was commenting in general not against your goodself.
Agree the 21 was the best availabe at the time although perhaps the slightly bigger delta 7m was about 200kgs heavier so may have proved a little better in those conditions. The 21 was always a bit bum heavy, there was alot of cloober hanging off the back, engines, righting frame, airbag and gas tank and the seating was biased to the rear. The problem with ribs in those conditions is they have a huge amount of bouyancy in the bows and tend to get throw up quite violently in sharp head seas. A double ender with finer bows and more central ballast such as a inboard diesel would have faired better, however as stated you can't have every boat for every situation.
I don't think the guys in this situation could have done any better the conditions were just too violent and as a previous poster pointed out a video never does justice to the actual conditions, I bet if we were stood there one would have been pooping oneself!.
Agree the 21 was the best availabe at the time although perhaps the slightly bigger delta 7m was about 200kgs heavier so may have proved a little better in those conditions. The 21 was always a bit bum heavy, there was alot of cloober hanging off the back, engines, righting frame, airbag and gas tank and the seating was biased to the rear. The problem with ribs in those conditions is they have a huge amount of bouyancy in the bows and tend to get throw up quite violently in sharp head seas. A double ender with finer bows and more central ballast such as a inboard diesel would have faired better, however as stated you can't have every boat for every situation.
I don't think the guys in this situation could have done any better the conditions were just too violent and as a previous poster pointed out a video never does justice to the actual conditions, I bet if we were stood there one would have been pooping oneself!.
Solitaire
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I bet if we were stood there one would have been pooping oneself!.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, yup! Frankly I don't think there was really anything they could have done any differently Trevor. They had no real time to settle into the conditions and power up - would have been interesting if they had used a zap cat - they were developed for beach rescue work in South Africa, and I can tell you that waves coming in off the Atlantic and Indian Oceans can be far worse than that. Most people think that Zap Cats were built for fun racing.
I bet if we were stood there one would have been pooping oneself!.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, yup! Frankly I don't think there was really anything they could have done any differently Trevor. They had no real time to settle into the conditions and power up - would have been interesting if they had used a zap cat - they were developed for beach rescue work in South Africa, and I can tell you that waves coming in off the Atlantic and Indian Oceans can be far worse than that. Most people think that Zap Cats were built for fun racing.
timgriffin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet if we were stood there one would have been pooping oneself!.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, yup! Frankly I don't think there was really anything they could have done any differently Trevor. They had no real time to settle into the conditions and power up - would have been interesting if they had used a zap cat - they were developed for beach rescue work in South Africa, and I can tell you that waves coming in off the Atlantic and Indian Oceans can be far worse than that. Most people think that Zap Cats were built for fun racing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually
Zap Cats were developed for racing and Zap cat racing evolved from Inshore Rescue Boat Racing . The use of Hi Jackers (inflatable keels) opened up a whole new world in terms of speed and cornering . No IRB is ever used with an open bow as no protection for casualty . The boat is managed in surf break by dynamic ballasting of the crew. Closed bow Catamaran hulls are manufactured by Gemini , Stingray , Zodiac and Midcoast marine .All of these are approved IRB boats
Tim RLSS Rescue Boat Trainer Assessor. I can send you some pics if you like
[ QUOTE ]
I bet if we were stood there one would have been pooping oneself!.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, yup! Frankly I don't think there was really anything they could have done any differently Trevor. They had no real time to settle into the conditions and power up - would have been interesting if they had used a zap cat - they were developed for beach rescue work in South Africa, and I can tell you that waves coming in off the Atlantic and Indian Oceans can be far worse than that. Most people think that Zap Cats were built for fun racing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually
Zap Cats were developed for racing and Zap cat racing evolved from Inshore Rescue Boat Racing . The use of Hi Jackers (inflatable keels) opened up a whole new world in terms of speed and cornering . No IRB is ever used with an open bow as no protection for casualty . The boat is managed in surf break by dynamic ballasting of the crew. Closed bow Catamaran hulls are manufactured by Gemini , Stingray , Zodiac and Midcoast marine .All of these are approved IRB boats
Tim RLSS Rescue Boat Trainer Assessor. I can send you some pics if you like
