Ohdrat
New member
What are the pros and cons???
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Roller v Slab Reefing
- Thread starter Ohdrat
- Start date
jimi
Well-known member
I presume when you're talking roller, you mean an in mast roller reefed main?
Roller
Pros
Ease of handling
Cons
Sailshape
Stability (more weight aloft)
Slab
Better sail shape (horizontal battens) & roach
Harder work .. but can be done from cockpit
and if lazy jacks + stacpac then dead easy to handle
<hr width=100% size=1>.. whit way roon should it be again ..
Roller
Pros
Ease of handling
Cons
Sailshape
Stability (more weight aloft)
Slab
Better sail shape (horizontal battens) & roach
Harder work .. but can be done from cockpit
and if lazy jacks + stacpac then dead easy to handle
<hr width=100% size=1>.. whit way roon should it be again ..
Peppermint
New member
Slab reefing was and is a major breakthrough in sail handling.
In mast furling mainsails are the work of the devil.
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In mast furling mainsails are the work of the devil.
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Vara
Active member
The signature speaks
<hr width=100% size=1>COL,IF IT CAN'T BE FIXED WITH A LUMP HAMMER DONT FIT IT.
<hr width=100% size=1>COL,IF IT CAN'T BE FIXED WITH A LUMP HAMMER DONT FIT IT.
jamesjermain
Active member
To the cons of in-mast reefing you should ad the safetly factor that if the system jams with the sail unrolled it is almost impossible to get it in. This coould be tricky in a rising wind.
A slab reefing main can always be lowered unless the halyard jumps a sheeve at the top of the mast - a very unlikely event.
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A slab reefing main can always be lowered unless the halyard jumps a sheeve at the top of the mast - a very unlikely event.
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PeteMcK
New member
If you mean old fashioned round the boom rolling (e.g., original setup on Co 32s and Moo 33s), I've just un-converted from a messy half-hearted slab modification back to rolling.
The advantages are that: the reefing area is almost infinitely variable; there are 10s of metres less string around; with the small mains on most 60s and 70 masthead rigs, you don't need to reef often anyway, so the (supposed) minute or so saved with slab reefing is not much of an issue; it's dead simple.
The drawbacks are: the bottom of the sail is over flattened (not that you'd notice unless racing, and possibly not at all); reefing is slightly slower; your battens need to be parallel to the boom; the work has to be done at the mast.
If you mean 'in mast' or 'in boom' rolling, my view of these is that neither is simple enough to be as dependable as the alternatives.
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The advantages are that: the reefing area is almost infinitely variable; there are 10s of metres less string around; with the small mains on most 60s and 70 masthead rigs, you don't need to reef often anyway, so the (supposed) minute or so saved with slab reefing is not much of an issue; it's dead simple.
The drawbacks are: the bottom of the sail is over flattened (not that you'd notice unless racing, and possibly not at all); reefing is slightly slower; your battens need to be parallel to the boom; the work has to be done at the mast.
If you mean 'in mast' or 'in boom' rolling, my view of these is that neither is simple enough to be as dependable as the alternatives.
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gunnarsilins
New member
Moo 33 roller
Do you have the same arrangement as I have on my Moo 42, where you can turn the boom with a winch handle on the front of the mast?
On my boat the mechanism has frozen solid, and the retrofitted slab reefing arrangement works quite well.
But I´m curios, is there a way to use a kicking strap when roller reefing? One of these old fashioned 'claws' with rollers gripping round the boom and rolled sail?
And would it work with full length battens?
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Do you have the same arrangement as I have on my Moo 42, where you can turn the boom with a winch handle on the front of the mast?
On my boat the mechanism has frozen solid, and the retrofitted slab reefing arrangement works quite well.
But I´m curios, is there a way to use a kicking strap when roller reefing? One of these old fashioned 'claws' with rollers gripping round the boom and rolled sail?
And would it work with full length battens?
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charles_reed
Active member
During the 70s boom roller reefing was the in thing - it died out because of the difficulty of attaching the kicker and the fact that the outboard end of the boom drooped lower and lower as you reefed and the fully reefed sail was appallingly baggy. I take it this is not the sytem to which you are referring.
The alternative systems now on offer are either in-mast or in-boom reefing. The former appears to be more popular, increasingly being fitted to many modern production boats.
The main benefit of both is far greater ease of handling compared to a conventional main with slab reefing. In the case of in-mast furling the lack of effort is further reduced because the main does not have to hoisted every time the sail is set.
There are a number of drawbacks, of significance probably only to purists.
1. Potential sail area is reduced, in the case of in-mast roller sails, by 10-12% due to lack of roach and efficiency reduced even further due to lack of battens to prevent leech flutter.
2. In the case of fractional rigs the inability to change the mast bend and thus change sail shape.
3. An increase in weight aloft reducing stiffness.
Compared to a fully-battened main on a similar mast/boom configuration drive is reduced by as much as 25%.
This is of no problem with a lightweight production boat with high form stability and increased mast height, but results in relatively undercanvassed boats when the modification is carried out on a conventional boat.
Both systems have reported failures in the furling systems, though with more modern in-mast systems these are infrequent. In-boom systems, with the difficulty of allowing for the gooseneck, and the deflection of the mandrel still report significant levels of jamming. This inability to prevent distortion and retain sail-shape and tension is the main reason for boom-reefing's relative lack of success.
A superior alternative to boom rolling reefing is to fit single line reefing which, when low-friction blocks are used, is faster, more fault-free and allows the use of a fully sized and efficient main. Such efficient blocks are only currently being introduced to the market by Rutgerson.
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The alternative systems now on offer are either in-mast or in-boom reefing. The former appears to be more popular, increasingly being fitted to many modern production boats.
The main benefit of both is far greater ease of handling compared to a conventional main with slab reefing. In the case of in-mast furling the lack of effort is further reduced because the main does not have to hoisted every time the sail is set.
There are a number of drawbacks, of significance probably only to purists.
1. Potential sail area is reduced, in the case of in-mast roller sails, by 10-12% due to lack of roach and efficiency reduced even further due to lack of battens to prevent leech flutter.
2. In the case of fractional rigs the inability to change the mast bend and thus change sail shape.
3. An increase in weight aloft reducing stiffness.
Compared to a fully-battened main on a similar mast/boom configuration drive is reduced by as much as 25%.
This is of no problem with a lightweight production boat with high form stability and increased mast height, but results in relatively undercanvassed boats when the modification is carried out on a conventional boat.
Both systems have reported failures in the furling systems, though with more modern in-mast systems these are infrequent. In-boom systems, with the difficulty of allowing for the gooseneck, and the deflection of the mandrel still report significant levels of jamming. This inability to prevent distortion and retain sail-shape and tension is the main reason for boom-reefing's relative lack of success.
A superior alternative to boom rolling reefing is to fit single line reefing which, when low-friction blocks are used, is faster, more fault-free and allows the use of a fully sized and efficient main. Such efficient blocks are only currently being introduced to the market by Rutgerson.
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Ohdrat
New member
Yup its the round boom type.. none of this fancy in mast/boom stuff.. toying with converting to slab (It's what I've used before.. never had to deal with round boom on anything bigger than a Devon Yawl..)
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claymore
Well-known member
The pros are for slab and the cons are for roller. No other way of looking at it -
slab with a fully battened main and a stacpac that is - you could order one from Owen sails at Benderloch on your way past.
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Claymore
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slab with a fully battened main and a stacpac that is - you could order one from Owen sails at Benderloch on your way past.
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Claymore
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PeteMcK
New member
Re: Moo 33 roller
It's operated by a handle on the front of the mast - no bevel gears - the gooseneck rotates on nylon bearings which pass right through. The M33 has a Proctor setup which was extremely popular at one time and it's very simple although some of the parts need replacing every 5 years or so - not sure what's on the M42. The 'old-fashioned' roller claws are, in fact, still produced by Holt-Allen in two sizes: I bought one last year. I've been told that the claw can wear the sail, no surprise there, but I reef so seldom I don't expect it to be an issue and, in any case, chafe patches could be glued to the most vulnerable spots.
Full-length battens would be a challenge, esp. if you were to use a claw.
Slab is fine too in my experience, but not with the arrangement I had. If I decide to go down that road again with the '33', I'd get a new boom and all the proper paraphernalia, meaning quite a lot. The main is small, but not small enough to slab reef easily without winches, clutches, organisers, etc., not to mention a new vang: probably £2000 plus as DIY, and low to the point of invisibility on my own list of priorities.
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It's operated by a handle on the front of the mast - no bevel gears - the gooseneck rotates on nylon bearings which pass right through. The M33 has a Proctor setup which was extremely popular at one time and it's very simple although some of the parts need replacing every 5 years or so - not sure what's on the M42. The 'old-fashioned' roller claws are, in fact, still produced by Holt-Allen in two sizes: I bought one last year. I've been told that the claw can wear the sail, no surprise there, but I reef so seldom I don't expect it to be an issue and, in any case, chafe patches could be glued to the most vulnerable spots.
Full-length battens would be a challenge, esp. if you were to use a claw.
Slab is fine too in my experience, but not with the arrangement I had. If I decide to go down that road again with the '33', I'd get a new boom and all the proper paraphernalia, meaning quite a lot. The main is small, but not small enough to slab reef easily without winches, clutches, organisers, etc., not to mention a new vang: probably £2000 plus as DIY, and low to the point of invisibility on my own list of priorities.
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PeteMcK
New member
Suck it and see...
My experience is that it's plenty good enough for me not to want to spend two grand on a full blown conversion; Charles says it gives appalling results. The results are bound to differ depending on the rig/boat.
With my very large genny c/w almost-but not-quite-vestigial main, it's not all that important.
But the corollary of this is that, for performance reasons similar to those stated by Charles, I determinedly refuse to have a roller headsail. So there!
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My experience is that it's plenty good enough for me not to want to spend two grand on a full blown conversion; Charles says it gives appalling results. The results are bound to differ depending on the rig/boat.
With my very large genny c/w almost-but not-quite-vestigial main, it's not all that important.
But the corollary of this is that, for performance reasons similar to those stated by Charles, I determinedly refuse to have a roller headsail. So there!
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Close hauled
Member
I agree with everything said so far (phew) and have slab reefing on our boat - but a fully battened main is a pig to reef down wind. I have to come up a fair bit in order to get the pressure off the cars so that it'll slide down. I don't think that this is a positive feature. Or maybe I'm doing something wrong.
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janie
New member
On our Albin Ballad, we are in the process of converting after many years. I would prefer to stay with the roller reefing, because it's so much easier when just two of us are sailing. But we can get a bigger mainsail (roach) for racing if we change. We have the new boom so far, not the new main or winch, so not sure what the end cost will be.
We used to use the claw when racing, but decided that on the small size of the reefed main, we could use the traveller and main to almost as good effect.
It would be nice if we could still use the old main and boom when cruising.
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We used to use the claw when racing, but decided that on the small size of the reefed main, we could use the traveller and main to almost as good effect.
It would be nice if we could still use the old main and boom when cruising.
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nicho
Well-known member
On new boats with the Selden in mast furling specified, the additional weight aloft is marginal, only around 2 or 3 kgs I seem to remember, because they use a different and lighter mast section (can't remember the exact figures 'cos the manual's on the boat). On retro fitted systems, it's a different matter, and the weight gain can be significant. John Goode's recommendation if a roller reefed main jams when fully deployed, is to lower it on its internal halyard and lash it to the boom. With a loose fitted mainsail, if it jams halfway in/out, he recommends you release the outhaul, and using a long bight around the leech, pull it in to lash the sail to the mast. Sounds simple enough, but I wouldn't like to do it in any sort of wind!!
It's interesting to see in Hythe, just how many boats (not just new ones) now have in mast reefing - probably around 30% on our pontoon. Many owners these days (self included) seem more interested in ease of handling rather than out and out performance, though specifying vertical battens can help retain good sail shape.
With a little thought/care during the hauling out/in process, especially by keeping tension on the outhaul as it is wound in to prevent bagging inside the mast, modern systems seem pretty reliable.
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It's interesting to see in Hythe, just how many boats (not just new ones) now have in mast reefing - probably around 30% on our pontoon. Many owners these days (self included) seem more interested in ease of handling rather than out and out performance, though specifying vertical battens can help retain good sail shape.
With a little thought/care during the hauling out/in process, especially by keeping tension on the outhaul as it is wound in to prevent bagging inside the mast, modern systems seem pretty reliable.
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MainlySteam
New member
<<<the additional weight aloft is marginal, only around 2 or 3 kgs>>>
However, the point is with in mast reefing the weight of the sail is always aloft whereas with slab or in boom when reefing the weight is brought down towards the deck as the sail is reefed. Normally, in non-race boats, weight aloft is of most concern in conditions where one would normally be reefed.
Large yachts seem to be all going to in boom reefing, and I have to say that most smaller yachts (say, under 50 - 60 foot) I have seen with in mast (in mast is not very popular out here) have very lightly constructed sails, which is fine in my opinion for a life in sedate conditions but not for a cruising vessel that ranges beyond those.
John
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However, the point is with in mast reefing the weight of the sail is always aloft whereas with slab or in boom when reefing the weight is brought down towards the deck as the sail is reefed. Normally, in non-race boats, weight aloft is of most concern in conditions where one would normally be reefed.
Large yachts seem to be all going to in boom reefing, and I have to say that most smaller yachts (say, under 50 - 60 foot) I have seen with in mast (in mast is not very popular out here) have very lightly constructed sails, which is fine in my opinion for a life in sedate conditions but not for a cruising vessel that ranges beyond those.
John
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charles_reed
Active member
You've probably put your finger on it - in mast reefing is chosen for recreational boats with light usage where convenience is more important than performance. I'd guess that about 90% of new boats (10 - 14m) going into Med waters have in-mast reefing.
Regarding your point about in boom reefing on larger boats, in the med the system started out as a very popular one but, except on boats with high aspect sails and thus short feet, most seem to have reverted to slab reefing.
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Regarding your point about in boom reefing on larger boats, in the med the system started out as a very popular one but, except on boats with high aspect sails and thus short feet, most seem to have reverted to slab reefing.
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MainlySteam
New member
I fully agree with your comment regarding larger boats reverting to slab reefing, made in response to mine on in boom reefing. I actually had in mind superyachts in the 100 foot plus class where some sort of powered system is almost mandatory, but was remiss in not making that clear in my post.
Certainly for any vessels intended for anything like serious use out here they are all slab reefed, but is certainly not "Mediterranean" here! In my own local area (Wellington and top area of South Island) there is only a very small percentage with boom or mast reefing. In our own marina which probably has around 60 yachts in it (excluding power boats) I can only recall one boat with in boom or in mast reefing (is in boom) and contrarily that boat is used hard, including blue ocean. Even a brand new Beneteau around 37 foot (looks like a B 373 but have not looked that closely to check) which has just been delivered into the marina is slab reefed.
Regards
John
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Certainly for any vessels intended for anything like serious use out here they are all slab reefed, but is certainly not "Mediterranean" here! In my own local area (Wellington and top area of South Island) there is only a very small percentage with boom or mast reefing. In our own marina which probably has around 60 yachts in it (excluding power boats) I can only recall one boat with in boom or in mast reefing (is in boom) and contrarily that boat is used hard, including blue ocean. Even a brand new Beneteau around 37 foot (looks like a B 373 but have not looked that closely to check) which has just been delivered into the marina is slab reefed.
Regards
John
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ArgoNot
New member
Personally I like the simplicity of slab. But on the matter of weight aloft, dismast a yacht and it becomes much more liable to turn turtle so would the inertia of this added weight aloft not increase a boat's resistance to capsize?
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alant
Active member
Isn't Profurl (in boom ) reefing system from your neck of the woods? This system I have used (fully battened main) & was impressed. Also felt safe to revert to a conventional 'slab' if any failure & needing to reef. Also apparently easy to retrofit.
Also Maxpro (think from Ringwood) or similar use vertical battens & full roach- claim good results & reasonable costs of converting existing sails.
As has been mentioned on previous threads, any of these in mast or in boom systems need careful set up of boom attitude to prevent jambing when furling. Easy to mark lines to eliminate these problems.
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Also Maxpro (think from Ringwood) or similar use vertical battens & full roach- claim good results & reasonable costs of converting existing sails.
As has been mentioned on previous threads, any of these in mast or in boom systems need careful set up of boom attitude to prevent jambing when furling. Easy to mark lines to eliminate these problems.
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