Roller furler and forestay musings

[prv]

Kindred Spirit currently has both a staysail roller furler and a plain wire forestay. The top of the forestay is shackled to the mast, but the furler is simply hauled up with the staysail halyard - if I were to let go the halyard I could lower the whole foil to the deck. The foil seems to have a small auxiliary halyard built into it to pull the sail up the groove.

Both parts (furler and forestay) are fixed at the stemhead, the furler with a shackle and the forestay with a lashing. Unfortunately they're too close together and so the forestay lashing fouls the furler drum. See the attached picture. It also seems wrong to me to have a luff foil supported only by a halyard, and I don't like the "spare" forestay flapping around the place.

There doesn't seem any obvious benefit to having both forestay and furler. The only one I can think of is putting a storm staysail on the stay, but of course the halyard is already in use holding up the foil, which I wouldn't fancy trying to bring down and secure in bad weather - it's almost as long as the boat. Since I can already halve my headsail area by losing the jib, and have further flexibility with main and mizzen, I do wonder whether I need a storm staysail quite as much as an AWB with massive genoa.

The wire up the middle of the furler needs replacing anyway, so I'm contemplating getting it done to a suitable length for use also as a forestay, as on a typical modern rig, shackling it to the top of the mast, and losing the separate stay. Don't know whether to have the end as a bottlescrew or a lashing - I'm not sure we'll be able to get the length close enough for a bottlescrew since we're not copying an existing stay.

This would neaten up the stemhead, but also remove the possibility of hoisting a hanked-on staysail which I currently could do by lowering the foil. However, since I don't own a hanked-on staysail it seems moot. There was a storm sail of some description on board, but I don't know if it was a jib or staysail and it's now stored away in my parents' attic.

If I did do this, I'd have a staysail halyard surplus to requirements. I suppose it could be used to hoist a wire-luffed storm staysail, if I had one. It's also appealing to have a general-purpose gantline about the place (MOB hoisting if nothing else) but I suspect that's really just unnecessary windage on a 24-footer, remembering that each of my halyards has a purchase and I have a solid mast so three runs of line are exposed for each halyard that's not hoisted. There's also no obvious place to tack it down where it won't foul things (it can't run tight against the mast as I have mast hoops, and the forehatch is immediately in front of the mast so no ringbolts there). However, just getting rid of it doesn't feel right - feels like I'm losing flexibility.

I get the impression that everything would be much neater if I reverted to the traditional combination of a hanked-on staysail and all-flying jib - the gear rather lends itself to that even though Cornish Yawls were supplied with rollers from new. But as a boat I'd like to single-hand, giving up an already-fitted roller-reefing staysail and roller-furling jib seems like it would probably be a foolish choice.

I'd be interested to see what anyone else thinks of these issues.

Picture of the whole boat at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2383887&postcount=267 , to see how the rig works.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Dan the man]

maybe what they do on dinghies, 12m sharpie...I would keep the forestay as a safety wire incase the halyard broke etc etc...loosen the forestay a little and fit a small eye a few inches forward of the forestay attachment and using elastic pull it forward. if the halyard breaks the forestay will take the load, the elastic will just stretch....

maybe?

 

[Richard10002]

Different arrangement as the foil seems to be fitted around the forestay, and the halyard pulls a kind of tube which fits around the foil... the sail is attached to the bottom of the tube. The tube has a swivel arrangement, so the sail can wrap around the foil, but the halyard doesnt twist.

Just below the top of the mast is a metal eye, which the halyard goes through.... it's called a genoa deflector, and keeps the halyard away from the forestay and foil by angling the halyard away from the foil/forestay before they get too close to each other.

 

[William_H]

Jib roller

If it is the kind I helped a friend fit it has an additional light 5mm halyard as part of the foil.This comes down a spare slot in the foil to be cleated at a small jamber. The whole foil and halyard rotate with the drum so no thrust bearing at the top.
It is a cheap and fairly unsatisfactory furler. The problem is the small halyard. It is very difficult to get real tension on the sail luff. This is necessary for windward performance. One trick is to haul the sail up higher than necessary then use the lashing at the tack bottom of the jib to increase stretch of the jib luff. You need a spectra or similar low stretch rope for halyard.

This furler definitely has a wire up the middle however that wire is meant to be the forestay. So you need to attach the internal wire not to jib halyard but to the mast. This will mean you must go up the mast or lower the mast. The jib halyard will suit as a temp. forestay for lowering or climbing while you attach the internal wire.
You say you are going to fit a new internal wire (forestay). You might need to attach the internal wire to the mast perhaps with extra shackles etc so you can get a length. I don't think you need a turnscrew in the forestay. If you get the length pretty close then you adjust the forestay tension with triatic/ backstay and inner sidestays. In other words the angle of the mast to vertical will vary a little to set forestay tension. I don't think you will find the rake so critical. No turnscrew means you can have the drum as low as you like. My friend kept his turnscrew and so the sail is well above the deck. he lost area that way.

Percevere with the furler although I don't like furlers because of reduction of windward performance.
Of about 50 boats in our club only 4 have furlers and at least one removed his furler and went back to hank on jib. None with furlers are competitive to windward.

good luck olewill

 

[prv]

Different arrangement as the foil seems to be fitted around the forestay, and the halyard pulls a kind of tube which fits around the foil... the sail is attached to the bottom of the tube. The tube has a swivel arrangement, so the sail can wrap around the foil, but the halyard doesnt twist.

Just below the top of the mast is a metal eye, which the halyard goes through.... it's called a genoa deflector, and keeps the halyard away from the forestay and foil by angling the halyard away from the foil/forestay before they get too close to each other.

And?

I don't mean to be rude, but what does this description of a common roller-genoa arrangement have to do with me?

Pete

 

[prv]

If it is the kind I helped a friend fit it has an additional light 5mm halyard as part of the foil.This comes down a spare slot in the foil to be cleated at a small jamber. The whole foil and halyard rotate with the drum so no thrust bearing at the top.

Yes, that's the kind I have.

It is a cheap and fairly unsatisfactory furler. The problem is the small halyard. It is very difficult to get real tension on the sail luff. This is necessary for windward performance. One trick is to haul the sail up higher than necessary then use the lashing at the tack bottom of the jib to increase stretch of the jib luff. You need a spectra or similar low stretch rope for halyard.

I'll bear that in mind - I haven't seen the current halyard (it's not with the foil) but I bet it's just a random bit of white three-strand. Of course, this is not a high-performance boat, so some might say it doesn't matter, but the flip-side is that it's important not to give away what performance I do have.

This furler definitely has a wire up the middle however that wire is meant to be the forestay. So you need to attach the internal wire not to jib halyard but to the mast.

I realise that's how the furler designer meant it to be, but I'm more interested in what makes sense for my particular boat, which is ever so slightly unusual. Hence the musing about what exactly to do.

This will mean you must go up the mast or lower the mast.

No problem, since the mast is down and I am having all new rigging made up.

You say you are going to fit a new internal wire (forestay). You might need to attach the internal wire to the mast perhaps with extra shackles etc so you can get a length.

I didn't understand what you meant here at first, but then I realised you're talking about measuring to find out the required length of a new internal wire (right?). Unfortunately with the mast down I don't have the opportunity to do that, so I'm going to have to go on the length of the furler and separate forestay.

I don't think you need a turnscrew in the forestay. If you get the length pretty close then you adjust the forestay tension with triatic/ backstay and inner sidestays.

I don't actually have a triatic or backstay (apart from runners) but I take the point. Unfortunately I wouldn't like to bet on getting the length close enough to do that. I might go for a lashing in low-stretch rope, as that can be shorter than a bottlescrew.

Cheers,

Pete