Risk Assessment !

Here goes.

As a result of standing as Cruiser Captain for a small Solent based sailing club, I get to organise a series of "club" races. Nothing too grand - Out to the Nab and back and a few others split between in harbour and out of harbour races. As a part of this we collaborate with two other clubs close to us in an "interclub" series.
Occasionally the races get serious to a few at the front but mostly it is just good fun.

One of the clubs came to an interclub meeting a couple of years ago with a recommendation after they had carries out a risk assessment that all boats should have safety equipment to the level of ISAF offshore Category 5 Appendix j. Latest version here: Extract of the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations concerning Category 5 for inshore racing. Here

Most of the competitors do meet this standard which is a bit of a misnomer in it’s own title as it is an offshore regulation for racing inshore. We struggled with this for a while as we don’t want to put sailors off having fun but also want to do it properly as that’s usually best in the long run.
As a way of including the regulation without making it a rule we agreed to promulgate it in the standing Sailing Instructions bringing it to the attention of every competitor as they have to sign a declaration agreeing to the RYA method of resolving disputes/rules/protest etc. and confirming they are aware of the regulations above.
I was particularly keen not to introduce it as a rule as it would be too difficult to enforce and impossible to police effectively.

We also have club rallies where everyone meets at places such as the Folly but the organisation is limited to booking seats for a meal in the pub and trying to get everyone to moor up close to each other. I don’t think I should be involved in assuming anyone else’s risks as I have no control over them or their environment or really anything, so a risk assessment would be meaningless.
As a club we do carry out a risk assessment for racing and water usage at our location which is submitted to the local HM. With the harbour being busy with commercial and military ships, I can see the sense in that. It is difficult to come up with something new each season though.

Cheers
 
I presume if one of the club members was suggesting going to single handed to cherbs with 5 kids in his micro cruiser with no flares, radio or life jackets, somone might have a word, or maybe you would take his end of cruise meal money and stick it your kitty.

If you are the nice paternal sorts who would have a word, then a simple side of A4 risk assessment can't be too much of a hardship?

I thought the point of being on a sailing club committee was to spend as much time as possible generating paperwork and discussing important stuff. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
The original question was about what can be done to demonstrate that some form of risk assessment has taken place and in a court of law a signed piece of paper will carry more weight than word of mouth. It in no way absolves you from proper sensible procedure/assessment that takes place in the ordinary course of events. You can not disclaim responsibility for someone's death which arose out of your negligence but I don't think that this is an outcome being raised at the meeting. What is of more concern is the type that comes along, gets into trouble and then tries to blame someone else for their shortcomings. This is where a signed piece of paper would help you as organiser. The most likely scenario is where someone tries to sue for loss (civil liability) and not an issue of criminal behaviour.
Much recent health and safety legislation is sadly about box ticking (work station assessments for people who work in front of pc's typically consists of ticking boxes and signing a declaration) and of limited use in the real world where most of us operate in and have operated in for many years prior to someone enacting a piece of legislation
 
One part of a club risk assessment included putting up signs near the slipway saying "Caution, Slipway may be slippery" ... if the club had not done so and someone slipped up and broke their leg then the implication is that the sailing club had not fulfilled it's duties in pointing out the bleedin obvious ...
I'm quite happy for an individual to do a risk assessment - infact we do in just about everything we do - however, if they want to do a formal one then fine ... however it goes far to far when signs are required pointing out that hot water might be hot etc ... our club dinghy racing is quite simple - it is the skippers choice whether or not to race - not the OOD ... the OOD may cancel the race if they feel on the balance that it would not be a safe race ... this works well - if it's too windy most skippers don't turn up!
 
My feeling is that turning health and safety into a paperwork exercise is simply an easy option that will achieve very little. Though not so easy for the poor person who has to deal with the paperwork. It becomes a bolt on topic that sits arkwardly at the side and generates resentment.

It is much harder work, but far more effective, to have it integrated, seamlessly. As a sport we do this very well. Generally, sailors take pride in their ability to properly equip and maintain their boats, and plan, navigate and sail in an appropriate and seamanlike manner. A way of thinking that is part of the culture and tradition of sailing.

This is something many industries are trying to acheive and they probably look on with envy.

This culture should be continuely encouraged and reinforced. Ticking health and safety boxes and filling out paperwork, at committee level, distracts people from what that should be doing to address health and safety, which is to encourage the highest standards of seamanship.

If a club is asked what it is doing about health and safety, it should point to its training, mile building trips, and safety seminars with invited speakers from the RNLI. It should not be badgering every skipper to return forms on the equipment they carry (though it may like to negotiate a nice discount with a local chandlers for flares).

I don't think clubs should allow the current mode of thinking (forms, box ticking etc.) to deginerate health and safety in our sport to a point where it is viewed as a seperate and oneruous task, and not integral to good seamanship.
 
My tuppence - I'm no Lawyer but do have a little (professional) experience in this field. A lot of the law is quite grey outside of the more Heath Safety & Welfare centric environments such as factories, building sites, power plants etc.

Our company (under advice) works to the rule of thumb that if you "designed" it or are in direct control of it then you should have a safe system of work for it. A "suitable and sufficient" risk assessment can be a good way to establish that safe system of work.

So - in relation to this thread, if you're scope of control covers "let's leave A and arrive at B by X o'clock" then all you need to do is show that you've not been negligent in "designing" that activity. You do write a formal passage plan don't you? ;-)

The activity on participating boats is not directly under your control and as such you should assume liability and can't be held responsible for their individual ways of working. If you really wanted to cover you're stern you could ask them if they have a Safe Method of Work for their planned activity but if they are an organisation under 5 people they are not required to provide a formal written policy / method statement.

Beyond this, you should satisfy yourself that participants are "competent". I guess a fair (and easy) competence check would be to ask if every skipper has an appropriate RYA ticket. If you know that - then you could reasonably assume they are competent to carry out the task. Do you already have that on file at the club? If so - no drama there. If not, or they don't want to get the ticket, just memo yourself that you're confident that they are competent. You've thought about it and are no longer negligent.

Anyway - if there are fellow forumites who can offer a more legal insight to the above I'd love to know.

In summary - Prove you are not negligent for tasks under your control and satisfy yourself that people are competent. After that - a well timed cup of tea (trip below to the GPS, use of the heads etc) can save 1000 sheets of paper.
 
Totally agree. The point it to make things safer - not to kill forests with paperwork. Sailing is a long long way in front of a lot of organisations on this front.

I'll get off my soap box now.
 
Yes. I'd better get off mine too. I'm supposed to be writing a report on health and safety in mining, but finding this thread far more stimulating.
 
[ QUOTE ]
MacMan, I ask because its not yet clear to me what you've been asked to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if our posts crossed but I don't yet have the form that we will be required to fill in yet so I can't be specific yet. To be clear about my own view ANY form is too much and will not result in any increase in actual safety as opposed to lot of forms filled in.

I want nothing to do with any risk assessment, in any form. Previous rallys I have done have provided all sorts of helpful information. E.g. contact Marina X on CHYZ for your berth which he be pre booked under name z. Be aware that xyz VTS user CH12 But I have never made any attempt to interpret or asses risks. And I don't want to start now ON PRINCIPLE rather than ranting about any particular form (yet!)

It seems to becoming from the RYA in the first place so I wanted to

a) Rant
b) Find out if anyone has had experience of this in their club/association.
 
So, is it a club paying subscriptions, are you management of that club?

If you impose the rules and offer froms and take responsibility for health and safety do you need to, I think not.

If someone decides not to fill in your check form or abide by the health and safety policy of the organisation how can you stop them from "joining" the rally to the folly?

I think that in the situation of a yacht club employing bar staff with premisis then sure the health and safety rule apply and for the sake of the club management be properly done but for a rally where people chose to go on their own vessels then it cannot be your responsibility.

What if folks decide to take the ferry - are you going to complete a risk assessment for that too.

I'd not bother

Ian
 
I was hoping to copy and paste tome's (RIP) reaction last year when someone started interfering and suggesting that H&S considerations should be implemented for the Scuttlebutt trip. However the old threads have been removed.

If I remember correctly Tom said something like: "No ones in charge, me an a few friends are going to Cherbourg, we have some tables booked at the YC, if you want to join us, these are the dates.....". 'nuf said.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I want nothing to do with any risk assessment, in any form. Previous rallys I have done have provided all sorts of helpful information. E.g. contact Marina X on CHYZ for your berth which he be pre booked under name z. Be aware that xyz VTS user CH12 But I have never made any attempt to interpret or asses risks. And I don't want to start now ON PRINCIPLE rather than ranting about any particular form (yet!)


[/ QUOTE ]
I assume that the thinking regarding informing the participants of contact channels etc. was in case they were unfamiliar with them and you wanted to make sure the rally passed off without a hitch. In which case you undertook an informal risk assessment regarding what could go wrong and mitigated that risk by circulating the information.

It seems that you are being modest about having nothing to do with risk assessment - you're clearly an experienced practitioner.
 
If you dont want to take risks /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
STAY @ HOME /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
more accidents happen @ Home /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Beyond this, you should satisfy yourself that participants are "competent". I guess a fair (and easy) competence check would be to ask if every skipper has an appropriate RYA ticket.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know an awful lot of fairly incompetent YMs and a huge number of very competent sailors with no RYA qualifications at all!
 
[ QUOTE ]
So, is it a club paying subscriptions, are you management of that club?


[/ QUOTE ]

No - to be clear I am just a "bog standard" member. It's not my form and I don't want one. And in fact WILL NOT fill one on. It's the committee (who have the best intentions but I think are misguided) who are designing a RA form based on some sort of (as yet unseen guidance by me) RYA advice.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want nothing to do with any risk assessment, in any form. Previous rallys I have done have provided all sorts of helpful information. E.g. contact Marina X on CHYZ for your berth which he be pre booked under name z. Be aware that xyz VTS user CH12 But I have never made any attempt to interpret or asses risks. And I don't want to start now ON PRINCIPLE rather than ranting about any particular form (yet!)


[/ QUOTE ]
I assume that the thinking regarding informing the participants of contact channels etc. was in case they were unfamiliar with them and you wanted to make sure the rally passed off without a hitch. In which case you undertook an informal risk assessment regarding what could go wrong and mitigated that risk by circulating the information.



[/ QUOTE ]

So for me there is a BIG difference here. I made no assessment of any risk or took any responsibility for anyone's safety in the examples above. I merely stated some FACTS.

e.g. There IS a Southampton VTS and it DOES operate on CH12. FACT.
In the example above I HAVE booked a marina x and they CAN be contacted on CH80 FACT (or would be in a real life example)

No assessment of risk from me there. If you are a participant in a Rally I organise then if you don't have a VHF and don't listen to VTS fine by me it's your choice. You as an individual skipper have assessed that risk and made your choices.

I just provided some helpful information all of which were facts and required no assessment by me.

And that is at the absolute heart of the difference I am trying to get at.

I would always be as helpful as I could but don't think it's appropriate to take responsibilities for "your" Risk Assessments as a skipper. I think the principle behind the form that committee is trying to introduce changes this important dividing line.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you're worried about the rally getting in trouble legally then I would have thought that stating that in black and white should be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

These days it is seldom sufficient to issue a disclaimer, you can still be sued.

The term 'Risk Assessment' has become a bit of a bogey. It usually consists of a badly-designed form which doesn't work for the circumstances being assessed and is difficult to understand and a pain to fill in.

The key thing is to put on paper the process so you can demonstrate that you took reasonable care. It doesn't have to be a form, it could be just a few notes. Apart from a bit of identification of the event and date (so you can demonstrate it wasn't a catch-all you pulled out of a drawer) there are only 3 questions to answer-

1. What could go wrong?
2. Is it likely?
3. What can we do about it?

For example, on a trip to Cherbourg:

1. Boats getting caught down-tide of the harbour
2. Depends on the tides
3. Go at neaps

1. Boats overdue & not reported
2. Realistic possibility
3. Make a list of participants & circulate list of phone numbers and/or set up radio schedules.

Pretty simple stuff and it's what has always been done. It's just a case of putting it on paper so you can produce it in case of a mishap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
As a result of standing as Cruiser Captain for a small Solent based sailing club, I get to organise a series of "club" races. Nothing too grand - Out to the Nab and back and a few others split between in harbour and out of harbour races. As a part of this we collaborate with two other clubs close to us in an "interclub" series.

[/ QUOTE ]Reading this reminded me that, really, risk assessment has always been with us. Way back in 1969 I wanted to enter a cruiser rally/race round the Nab being organised by another Solent club. Back came the application form - the only condition was I had a Flag Officer of my own club countersign that I was competent to do this. As a brand-new rather young member, no-one would stick their neck out, so I took my boat to Cherbourg with my girlfriend instead!

It sounds very much like your situation.
 
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