Rigs: is sloop really the best?

TiggerToo

TiggerToo

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 Aug 2005
Messages
8,409
Location
UK
Visit site
Does anyone have direct experience of "alternative" rigs? I mean alternative to the ever present bermudan sloop (and its closely related variants). For example can anyone tell us how the unstayed "freedoms" really sail? And are junk rigs really all they are cracked up to be? If so, why are we not all sailing junks?
 
[ QUOTE ]
And are junk rigs really all they are cracked up to be? If so, why are we not all sailing junks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Got it in one I think!
 
Yes. I have sailed 15k miles under this one...
sl5.gif

And wouldn't want to go back to winch grinding, rounding up to reef or worrying about whether the shrouds need replacing.
 
Horses, course etc.
Ketch / yawl make sail handling easier.
If you are off the wind all the time a schooner also makes sense.
And rotating rigs, junk layouts, freedoms all have advantages mainly also to do with simplicity and ease of sail handling.
But as an all round rig - the popularity of the sloop rig is only because it works so well.
IMHO of course.
JOHN
 
Freedoms are magic to sail, but need to be sailed fairly free to obtain best speeds and VMG. Being totally unstressed they do not bang or crash and wave impacts quietly dissipate through the mast. No shouds to hang onto though and hull form is still key to getting a good boat.
 
I was talking to the owner of a junk-rigged boat last year and he told me that, although it is a very easy rig to handle, it does not go well to windward.

Personally I am attracted to the yawl, if only because it usually seems to be fitted to very beautiful yachts. But the masthead sloop has a lot going for it in terms of simplicity, strength and windward ability.

For ease of handling I suppose the spritsail rig, as fitted to sailing barges, takes some beating. Mostly sailed by two men, in all weather on the treacherous East Coast - proves something.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Always fascinated (and impressed) by that shot Snowleopard but dont you have a fair amount of windage aloft under bare poles?

Cameron

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it an oval cross-section? Which means it can be feathered into the wind to reduce windage. I used to sail a fully battened wing masted dinghy Catamaran, the final reef was to remove the sail altogether and sail with the 10-15sq ft of wing mast. The main problem was that it was made of ply on a wood frame and was a little too heavy ona 14' waterline so it tended to pitch & roll a little too much.
I currently sail a ketch and love its ability to sail well on roller genoa & mizzen in a blow. Dead easy to reef or hand the genoa and the mizzen is only 70sq ft so a really good rig for single-handing in strong weather. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have direct experience of "alternative" rigs? I mean alternative to the ever present bermudan sloop (and its closely related variants). For example can anyone tell us how the unstayed "freedoms" really sail? And are junk rigs really all they are cracked up to be? If so, why are we not all sailing junks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Prejudice mostly, and miss-information, A modern Junk Rig, will go to windward very well, given hinged battens and a few other tweeks. No it wont go to windward as well as a modern bermudan rigged super tweeked racer, but then neither will the average bermudan cruising boat.
 
I'm told the tacking angle is not so good for junk, but the overall upwind speed is pretty good.

Also understand that the lateen rig is very good, but never seen over here. Guess it is fashion as much as anything (like anchors!)
 
Yes, in fact it's an aerofoil section (NACA0036 for the technically minded!). When feathered it in fact presents much less resistance than a conventional rig as there are no stays.

We managed 6.5 knots in a F6 on the river this spring and in the past have done 9 knots at sea in a gale. Drive can be adjusted from zero to max by altering the angle of attack.
 
We have what I think is generally called a 'slutter' rig on our Challenger 35 - sort of halfway between a sloop and a cutter - and this works very well.

This 'slutter' rig consists of a roller furling genoa on the outer forestay (which goes to the masthead), along with a removable inner forestay which is secured to the deck about 3' aft of the stem, and fastened to the mast about 1' below the forestay.

This inner stay is excellent for flying a hank on working jib (often used, as I dont like using the genoa in reef mode - I prefer to regard it as a furler) or a storm jib (we have one, but have never had to use it in anger yet).

And I do think that yawls are invariably outrageously pretty, and sail like a dream, especially if they are S & S designs - have a look at this web page about Stormy Weather, and see what you think : http://www.stormy.ca/stormy.
 
I think the tacking angle of junk rigged vessels depends as much on what's hanging underneath the rig as the rig itself. It doesn't suit all boats, the general learned concesus of opinion, (which I tend to subscribe to), is that junk rig is more suited to relatively shallow draft, and lightish displacement boats. A well sorted Junk Rigged yacht will tack through 100 degrees, as good as most, and better than some bermudan rigged cruisers.

There are exceptions, but why they are exceptions is beyond my knowledge to attempt to explain. I have only sailed in a couple of junk rigged boats, but I was mightily impressed with both of them, The first thing that surprises most people is how quiet they are (the sails do not slat and bang), the second thing is how easily handled the rig is, reefing is accomplished in seconds, and one handed, even while holding a cuppa in the the other! unless you are using it to hang on with /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Going about or Jibing is all a bit of a smile really, you just put the helm over, no frantic dashing about to get sheets under control, the boom wont come crashing over with a bang ready to take your head off! it's usually rigged above head height and is considerably lighter than the boom on a bermudan rig.

Because reefing is so easily done, you can get away with carrying more canvas for longer than you would with a bermudan rigged boat. ie, you can reef instantly when you have to, instead of, I had better reef down now because it looks like it is going to get a bit lively. I also think the rig is more adaptable to whatever conditions you may find yourself in. For instance, if your rig is a 7 panel job, that actually gives you 7 reefing options, as opposed to the more usual 2 or 3 of a bermudan rigged boat, because you can reef down one panel at a time. Shaking a reef out is almost as quick, just haul on the main halyard to get as many panels aloft as you want.

Generally speaking, a junk rigged vessel can carry more working canvass than it's bermudan rigged counterpart, (good for light airs, no need for trick sails) also, the junk rig spreads the pressure of the wind evenly over the whole sail, which I think is one of the reasons why a junk rigged boat doesn't heal over so much, (even to windward) as bermudan rigged boats. Sailing a junk rigged boat is generally thought of to be less tiring on it's crew, and folk often comment after having sailed in one about that.

Wear and tear on a junk sail is much less than on a bermudan rig, and in fact a junk sail will last for years, and will function quite happily even with great big holes in it! It is a very low tech, low maintenance rig, and as such is ideally suited to long distance and maybe single or short handed sailors. It is very easily repaired, by even the most average of skippers and or crew. It can be made out of old flour bags or the very latest high tech sail cloth, and many successful junk sails have been made from polytarps. The battens can and have been made out of all sorts of materials, high tech alloy with hinges, carbon fibre tubes, GRP tubes, ABS water pipe, and just good old fashioned wood. There are only really two items of running rigging to concern yourself with, the halyard and the sheet, note I said THE halyard and THE sheet, well you have only got one of each!, the rather long tails of which are usually stowed in bags or boxes designed for the purpose. there are other more minor bits of rope that are used for fine sail control, but I will leave you to investigate that for yourselves should you wish to.

It doesn't suit all boats, you need plenty of bury for the mast (it's an unstayed rig) masts have been made out of all sorts of materials from very high tech alloy,to flag poles,telegraph poles, lamp posts (I kid you not) and obviously wood, from just a solid pole to posh laminated jobbies.

All the above is just a very light weight synopsis of what it's all about, but if anyone is interested enough, I would say buy a copy of "Practical Junk Rig" by Hassler and Mcloed, the latest version has been updated to include the more recent developments of the rig. Alternatively, talk to Robin Blain, he is the secretary of the Junk Rig Association.

To go back to my original comment about prejudice and mis-information, it is my belief that sailing in general (at least where developments and fashions are concerned) is race led. I also think that if someone were to rig an ocean 60 as a junk schooner, and then went out and trounced everything in sight, then everybody would be wanting a junk rig! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ok, I reckon somebody will be asking, well if you think it's so good smiffy, why aint you got one? The answer to that is, there was nothing about that suited my requirements or wallet, when I was looking for a boat, otherwise I would have.

I have looked very hard at converting my boat to Junk Rig, but the economics of such a project, just didn't stand up. It was cheaper by a long shot to go for new sails and a stack pack with lazy jacks (ease of handling), than to convert her. It was the mast and the partners etc, that was the killer, well over a thousand pounds!

Which brings me to another downside point. Junk Rigged yachts don't sell very quickly, and if you do buy one or convert one, when it comes to sell it you will find it hard going, unless the right person is in place for you when you
come to sell. All to do with prejudice and fashion again??

In brief, I think that junk rig is ideally suited to long distance cruising folk, who may be single or short handed.

It would also suit the elderly who may have come to find that the bermudan rig is just getting to much for them? It would also suit the physically handicapped (that's probably not PC these days?) afterall the hardest job on a junk rigged boat, apart from weighing anchor is hauling the sail aloft, and if funds permit, an electric winch will take care of that, could also double up to aid in hauling up the anchor if powerful enough??

So, who woudn't it suit? well the racing fraternity probably, that like to go charging around the Solent with half a dozen colour co-ordinated lumps of rail meat squatting on the weather rail! Poor bu99ers would have naff all to do, and would get bored and want to go home! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Thanks everyone: another gem of a thread. It is great to hear a balance of opinions, untrammeled by commercial considerations and hidden prejudice.
 
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
interesting you see irony even when it is not there! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
This was not a troll, and the thread was worth reading
 
Reletively new to forums, what is a troll?? I was having a smile at the reference to hidden prejudices, everybody has prejudices, even me! I thought that some of the previous answers demonstrated that?

If you found some of the rather elongated post I made interesting, then that's good enough for me. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
A troll is a post designed to stir up trouble. try Googling it. With a regulated forum like this they get stamped on pretty quickly but in the past some fora have been destroyed by people starting fights for their own twisted reasons.

I thought it was an interesting thread but them I'm biased /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top