Responce from HM Treasury

[tripleace]

Bla Bla Bla , looking at problem

bla bla bla.. etc etc..

final paragraph, we can buy up to 2300 litres under the small quantity scheme and get round the vat.

I dont think any of them understand the problem or maybe they are just sending up smoke signals to pretend to be doing something

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boating-ads.co.uk/boating-ads/Froggie1.htm> Broom 38 details</A>

 

[Gludy]

I do not think anyone in government is even aware of the problem facing the marine industry and its customers.

All respnses just miss the target completely - I do not think its a ploy, or intentional - they are just idoits who live in a sort of wonderful isolation.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[tripleace]

do you not think it strange that we all write very clearly about the problem and we all seem to get back answers that are slightly off subject????



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boating-ads.co.uk/boating-ads/Froggie1.htm> Broom 38 details</A>

 

[Gludy]

I think that no one in government has any understanding of the issue.

I also beleive that the price hike is is big that it will be a major blow to the UK boat industry - in my marina we pay about £120 per gallon - that could go to £5 - a 400% price increase - there is not a power boater I know that, if the price hike happens will not pack it in. Most say it 'would never be allowed to happen" - I hope they are right.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[tripleace]

agree 100%

we have T*ss£rs in whitehall and a load of boaters who don't think it will happen.

well if it does I'm off..

HM government can stick it.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boating-ads.co.uk/boating-ads/Froggie1.htm> Broom 38 details</A>

 

[MedDreamer]

The government won't be too worried about those who pack it in, if they do increas the price fourfold then if three out of every four boaters pack it in, it will still be tax neutral to them. I know that my arguement is based on averages but the point I am trying to make is that the TAX YIELD would almost certainly still be higher than it is now, therefore they will not loose out.

Sadly, I believe that the respose you got was a politicians answer, they are aware of your concern and don't want to LIE to you so they will duck the question.

Martyn



<hr width=100% size=1>Living the dream

 

[Gludy]

I do not think the tax will remain nuetral - they will be losing the VAT and other taxes on marinas, reapirs. parts. boat sales etc. In many of these areas the total tax yiled including VAT is very high - coporation tax, VAT, PYE etc.

I know that I will be off and I know some in the business of repairing and servicing boats who will also be off. The total tax lost is very much greater than any possible extra they can raise on fuel.

As already stated we have a pile t***ssers in power and a pile of boaters who do not think it can happen. Almost every boater I speak to thinks it cannot happen because the effect would be so huge.

Years ago income tax was 98% top rate then some brilliant politician invented a wealth tax of 3% - when they applied this the twits managed a marginal tax rate of 101% - it is for such reasons that I have to assume that they are really stupid!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[MedDreamer]

At the end of the day it will be tax yield that decides the issue, you make a good point about VAT etc, perhaps someone with a better grasp of the facts and figures that you and I (eg the RYA) should make more of this.

That said I am not sure that it will be true that tax yield will drop - why? Because we are a pretty apathetic and pragmatic race and the liklihood is that a lot of people will just shrug their shoulders and carry on (perhaps cutting down on their cruising distances but still owning boats).

It will take a MASS exodus of boaters to reduce the tax yield and that will just not happen. There will be casualties and victims, namely the family boaters who try to fund their hobby from their earnings. I am afraid that their numbers will not influence an election so they don't count to the politicians.

Please be aware that my cynicism is aimed at the politicians and not at this campaign, I just think that it is already a done deal and the responses you are getting from MPS, government etc are just their normal smokescreens.

Regards

Martyn



<hr width=100% size=1>Living the dream

 

[Gludy]

"It will take a MASS exodus of boaters to reduce the tax yield and that will just not happen"

In Swansea we pay about £1.20 per gallon for diesel - this will go up 400% and not one single boater I have met can afford to continue boating after such a price hike. A boat that now uses say 15 gallons an hour on today's terms would suddenly in today;'s terms shoot up 4 to five fold = equivalent fuel consumption of 60 to 75 gallons per hour - a boat that now does 50 gallons an hour will be costing the same as if it did 200 to 250 gallons per hour at today's prices.
There would be a dramatic effect on the entire power boat UK market.

One £300,000 boat built and sold in the UK yields say about £135,000 in government revenue (VAT, tax from all the salaries, wage costs, corporation tax etc.) The same boat goes on in running costs to provide well over £10,000 p.a. yield to the treasury. Combine this with the fantastic drop in fuel consumption that would have to happen and you are looking at a net loss in total tax yield. There is just no way that the tax yield can be the same or higher than it is today - it would drop. I would like the RYA or a magazine to commission a proper report on this - I cannot see other than a dramatic drop in tax yield.

Now would anyone really want to purchase a power boat for use in the UK - the only market left would be the round the bay small speed boats.


<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[MedDreamer]

Paul

Tax yield - I do think this is the "best club" in our bag and I hope it is played up.

But, I still don't think there will be a MASS exodus of powerboaters. There will be an undoubted reduction in running hours, but large motorboats are still sold in countries where there is no red diesel.

Do you think your buddies in Swansea are a truly representative sample? - unlikely. If they are your boating/friends and aquaintances then their demographic profile is likely to be simlar to yours and there is an increased likelihood of them sharing your views. On Windermere, where I was until this Spring, many of the large boatowners don't take their boats out of the marina and the price of fuel is a non issue (There is one story, possibly apocriphal, that one particular boat owner has never taken their large Sealine out of its berth and had to get the Marina staff to take it around to the fuel pump as the heating system had run out of diesel.)

I bet the Treasury are well aware of the likely effect on tax yield despite their wishy/washy responses.

There will still be a British boat industry - a lot of production goes abroad anyway and suprisingly enough the Builders silence is deafening, if they were really worried wouldn't they be screaming by now, they probably recognise that its a done deal and are concentrating on changing their marketing strategy.

Oh dear, I'm beginning to sound a bit like Private Frazer from Dads Army - "we're doomed, we're doomed". Sorry about that but my opinion about the integrity of politicians ( particuarly this shower) drops daily. By the way I have signed the petition

Martyn


<hr width=100% size=1>Living the dream

 

[adarcy]

Re: ResponSe from HM Treasury

<<don't think there will be a MASS exodus of powerboaters.......but large motorboats are still sold in countries where there is no red diesel>>

OK it's not my area of skill to estimate how much of a "mass" but the second point is comparing apples + pears. Other countires don't have the their diesel priced anywhere near our UK road price to end user. If the end of the red concession means we would have to pay UK road price, it will be well worth us moving our boat abroad eg N France circa 50p/lit rather than 75+ here and (now anyway) lower mooring charges. Gordon aint gonna show a profit on us and surely we aren't the only ones.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MedDreamer]

Re: ResponSe from HM Treasury

I didn't mean it as a direct comparison on diesel price, I meant that the Boat makers will still have their markets.

None of us know what the overall effect of such an increase would be, we are all speculating. I speculate as follows:

1) The derogation (?) will disappear - government will use "green" argument and blame the EU for forcing it on us.
2) Many leisure boaters will modify their boat usage and reduce fuel consumption.
3) Smaller diesel engined boats will take a big hit on residual values (but not the Treasurys problem so thats OK then isn't it)
4) There will not be a MASS exodus or 75% reduction in fuel usage overall therefore tax yields will rise.
5) The one who feels the pain will be the family boater who currently spends his hard earned income doing something he enjoys - but what the hell he must be middle class and therefore fair game to this government.
6) Marinas will have more raggies but still be full (some of these raggies will be converts from motorcruisers choosing this route to upsize).

As I say it is pure speculation, but I bet the Treasury has a much more sophisticated model on which they can do their "what-ifs" and calculate the optimum tax hike to maximise yields, and that will determine the price of diesel in future. By the way this will probably be somewhere lower than the full price of road diesel

I'll shut up now because I'm only speculating but I haven't seen anything to make me change my opinion of this issue since it was first raised on here. I hope I am wrong

Martyn




<hr width=100% size=1>Living the dream

 

[Gludy]

Re: ResponSe from HM Treasury

Sorry - must disagree on some points:-

"1) The derogation (?) will disappear - government will use "green" argument and blame the EU for forcing it on us."
I agree that may well be the case.

"2) Many leisure boaters will modify their boat usage and reduce fuel consumption"

No - many, if not most already struggle and swallow hard when filling tamks- a 400% plus increase will make it untenable for them. Imagine a motor car - its a largish one and does 20mpg - now it suddenly is doing only 4 or 5 mpg - people would not use it, even well off people because the marginal cost is so high. In fact I know a multi millionnair who got rid of his car because consumption fell to about 12 mpg when driven hard.
A simple trip from Swansea is Ilfracoombe - I asked many 30 to 40 foot boaters would they go if they were using petrol - all said it would not be worth it - all though that such a price rise was not possible and all would have to stop boating if the concession ends.

"3) Smaller diesel engined boats will take a big hit on residual values (but not the Treasurys problem so thats OK then isn't it)"

The market values would drop like a stone because no one could afford to use them - my whole point. Bigger boats may be worth moving abroad- French ports would do very good business and boating money would move overseas rapidly.

"4) There will not be a MASS exodus or 75% reduction in fuel usage overall therefore tax yields will rise."

There will be mass drop out of the UN boat market. I am not poor, I have a Squadron 59 but I could not justify spending £1500 on a return trip to Padstow (6 hours round trip) - I would move it to the Med. It takes a lot of fuel revenue at higher rates to compensate for the many massive tax drops elsewhere. All my expenses would move overseas - it would take a huge amount o fule sales to compensate for my boat alone.

"5) The one who feels the pain will be the family boater who currently spends his hard earned income doing something he enjoys - but what the hell he must be middle class and therefore fair game to this government. "

They would leave boating and suffer greatly - this government was elected with the support of the middle classes. \\you may be right.

"6) Marinas will have more raggies but still be full (some of these raggies will be converts from motorcruisers choosing this route to upsize)."
Marinas will lose many power boats - the marine industry would lose out big time. I am not sure if the move to being a raggie will happen.

"7. As I say it is pure speculation, but I bet the Treasury has a much more sophisticated model on which they can do their "what-ifs" and calculate the optimum tax hike to maximise yields, and that will determine the price of diesel in future. By the way this will probably be somewhere lower than the full price of road diesel "

Strongly disagree - having done mathematical modelling on a large scale and having once discussed it with the person who became head of the Treasury - there is no way on earth they have any sophisticated model - any such model has to predict how boaters will behave - they cannot even get the basic facts right. Above all I am as certain as I can be that they do not know what they are doing. They are largely incompetent.

What would happen if the price of road fuel went up 400% to 500% - road use would be dramatically altered. Boating is no different.


<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[MedDreamer]

Re: ResponSe from HM Treasury

Oh Bugger Paul, I wanted to let this rest but I enjoying this banter too much. (Do you realise that if we were sat in a pub having this discussion over a few pints then everyone else would probably have left but we would still be enjoying it

I obviously can't really disagree with what you say because at this stage we are both just speculating.

I think we both agree that however they dress it up, the treasurys main interest is tax yield. On this basis I think the end result will be some form of "fudge" which will result in prices rising but not enough to result in the mass exodus (perhaps to 50-65p per litre). I do think that some researcher somewhere will be doing some form of modelling to calculate the best yield. I do not think that you will be paying 400% more.

This government will not miss an opportunity to get more from us.

Now, I've finished my drink, do you want another or is it time to go home?

Martyn



<hr width=100% size=1>Living the dream

 

[Gludy]

Re: ResponSe from HM Treasury

"then everyone else would probably have left but we would still be enjoying it "
I have to agree

"I obviously can't really disagree with what you say because at this stage we are both just speculating."

You can disagree even though, as you say, we are speculating - still ok to have differing opinions.

"I think we both agree that however they dress it up, the treasurys main interest is tax yield. "

We can agree on that.

"On this basis I think the end result will be some form of "fudge" which will result in prices rising but not enough to result in the mass exodus (perhaps to 50-65p per litre). I do think that some researcher somewhere will be doing some form of modelling to calculate the best yield. I do not think that you will be paying 400% more."

You have now joined the ranks of those who think it cannot happen - the discusssuion was about what would happen if it went the full hog. So you are changing the bais of the discussion but this would be Ok as long as it was your round

I think it can happen with the full rate being applied - the harder we fight that, the less chance of it happening. The reason I think it can happen is because they are idiots and goverments have a record of doing really stupid things.

We need to clearly establish what the different party lines are on this issue - I have asked my local MP for his Lib-Dem party line as well as his own views - no answer yet because I bet they have never even discussed it.

If I had the figures I would put up an on-line tax yield model that can be improved on as we go and played with by everyone to tune it in. I am convinced that there would be a huge drop in consumption - of the order of 80% and so they may well make the same tax yield out of the fuel but the tax yield drop in many other areas would mean an overall net drop in tax yield. My own boats and costs alone would result in a tax yield drop of about £15000 per annum. Just to compensate for one boat would take a lot of fueld sales.

The amount of fuel power boaters use is on a very small scale compared to other forms of transport and road use.



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul