residencia/boat ownership/Spain

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
point us towards the EU legislation or regulations on this matter. Despite asking you on a number of occasions to do this you have completely failed

[/ QUOTE ]I have done that twice already on this thread. Very happy to provide it to you a third time: EurLex

Thanks for your offer of mailing the RYA publication. I have access to all of their material so that will not be necessary.

 

[Tranona]

Unfortunately that link says nothing about a European wide Certificate of Competence that you calim exists. Maybe I have missed it, so please direct me to the precise reference as the case you originally offered as evidence was nothing to do with with Certificates of Competence or Licences for pleasure boat skippers, which is the subject of this thread.

If you have access to RYA material why do you complain when I suggest you read it? And if you have read it why do you persist in demonstrating such a woeful lack of knowledge of the facts contained within the material?

 

[bob234]

Hi Tranona,

At the risk of inflaming things I think you will find the answers to your questions if you read LJ's previous replies on this thread - AND bear in mind he context within which each reply is made.

Hi, Lemain, Tranona and JamesFrance. I enjoy all of your posts and often find then informative. However, occassionally other posters might disagree with you. Who is right and who is wrong cannot be determined by 'proof' in the form of single links to one source of information or legislation.

To persistently accuse someone who disagrees with you with spreading disinformation is insulting and to accuse them of being a troll for doing so belittles you. You might respond (again) that others have not provided the 'proof' you need but again, that misses the point on complex subjects.

The best advice on this thread is to get advice from a professional.

Sorry that I have had to disagree so strongly with your collective approach but I think it's getting too personal.

Cheers (I hope)

Bob

 

[Tranona]

Bob,

Thank you for your concern. However if you read LJs posts on this thread and previous threads you will find a consistent pattern of misinformation. Nearly everything he says is either wrong or unsupported by evidence.

While I accept that professional advice is sometimes needed when individuals have complex personal and financial affairs to sort out, this topic is neither complex nor open to much debate. The facts are simple and well known and there is no mileage in trying to make them complicated. There are of course grey areas, but these are also well known and documented.

It is not a question of disagreement, that only comes when there is opinion, but that is not the case here. It is simply his refusal to accept ANYTHING that I or others say as having any validity, even when supported by references to appropriate official sources.

Constantly falling back on "I am an expert" does not help when there is ample evidence of a distinct lack of expertise. For an example of what I mean, I suggest you follow the trail of his incorrect statement that there is an EU wide Certificate of Competence. How can a person who claims to be an "expert" ever come up with such a statement?

I guess the answer is just to ignore him, which is a pity, because a real expert would be an asset on this forum as it shorten many of the threads!

 

[bob234]

Hi Tranona,

But he admitted to bad wording on the EU wide thingy AND apologised. Surely there can no longer be a basis for bringing that up as an eg can there?

The point I was making was that I think you are getting a bit personal.

 

[JamesFrance]

Bob, our problem is that when someone claims to be qualified and an expert on a subject, yet has a history of posting 'advice' which we know to be wrong, then insisting that they are the only one to understand the topic so that no supporting evidence is necessary, it is very hard to simply ignore it.

If we leave it alone, some unfortunate new poster seeking information may well be taken in and believe what they are reading.

I have previously asked for an informative topic showing official information from government websites and started by me to be removed from the forum, because of total confusion caused by the same poster.

 

[bob234]

Hi James,

Thanks for that.

I have read many of the relevant threads and I don't agree that LJ's answers were wrong or misleading as often as you have all been saying.

His main advice has been that on such subjects don't rely on individual threads or references to single bits of information. I agree with that, others may not. To suggest that someone who says that is misleading people is very poor IMHO.

The trouble is that it seems that some of you now disregard EVERYTHING said by that poster. I have tried to read the threads in a detached way and I struggle to remember a response from the relevant people where you acknowledge that anything said in one of LJ's posts is a good point. It suggests you might be blinded to the good stuff - and on this type of topic I would be surprised if I am alone in finding a lot of useful things in LJ's posts even if the tone can be somewhat 'direct'. I certainly haven't felt misled by him.

It reminds me of something called 'the Group Effect' (I think it's called). We had it in a Board I once served on, whereby the relationships between the members of the Board were so good and self re-inforcing that it became detached from the rest of the company and it was blinded to inputs from outside, especially if they contradicted our own 'carefully researched' position.

I don't agree with everything that LJ, Lemain, Tranona or you say, but I find it all valuable. I do find it offensive to see a poster consistently lambasted for disagreeing with a position - you might have to open your mind to the possibility that sometimes he is right and on some occasions your accusations he is misleading people might be wrong - erm.... IMHO! Apart from anything else why would anybody set out to deliberately to mislead people?

Cheers,

Bob

Cheers,

Bob

 

[JamesFrance]

Bob you could have a point there, this comes to mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

This is the thread which I found particularly annoying:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2074754/page/21/fpart/1/vc/1

 

[Tranona]

Hi Bob

But even the "re-wording" was still completely wrong.

And LJ does make useful contributions such as the recent thread on holding tanks in Turkish waters where he provided some useful input on what actually happens. This was of interest to me because I am struggling to find a way to fit a holding tank into my boat as I might be heading that way in the next year or two.

It is just, as James says when he tries to post on such matters as residency, health care entitlement, yacht registration and licences where his opinions are completely out of line with well established facts. One could excuse such misunderstandings from newcomers and lay people but not from somebody who claims to be an expert and gives advice professionally.

Much of my knowledge on these subjects (imperfect though it is) has actually come from questioning statements made by people on these fora when they do not look "right" and therefore justify investigation. Sometimes the poster is right but often very basic research uncovers sufficient evidence that refutes.

 

[DavidJ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is true that Spain requires a Certificate of Competence to sail in its waters.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's interesting. I think it's generally believed that if you're a British resident with a British flagged boat that British rules apply to boating in the EU (maybe even the world) so that no 'licence' is required. I think many of us in the Med have been under this misapprehension.

 

[Tranona]

If you read the substance of this thread, you will see that the issue of "licences" is nothing to do with EU. There is a very good article in the RYA members magazine autumn 2008 pages 17-19 which summarises the situation. Spain is listed as a country that requires a Certificate of Competence - indeed a Spanish resident has to pass a state test before s/he can skipper a yacht (think its over 7m).

You "right" to navigate your British registered boat in Spanish waters derives from the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea. This means that you do not have to comply with Spanish requirements if you are just "passing through" - the term is innocent passage, but if your boat is kept in Spain, which is OK under EU law provided you are not resident, the Spanish authorities could insist on you having a CofC. This is what the ICC is intended to provide - also a UN initiative. In practice I understand the authorities do not enforce this as Spain has not signed up to the UN Resolution, but the RYA will issue you with an ICC if you pass the short test or hold the necessary RYA certificate. A similar situation exists in Greece, and the ICC is normally accepted, for example if you want to skipper a Greek registered boat.

As you will see the original question on this thread was to do with a British citizen resident in Spain who wanted to buy and use a boat in Spain. In this case s/he would have to register the boat in Spain and pass the test (in Spanish). An ICC would not be an acceptable substitute, although there is some anecdotal evidence that a Yachtmaster would be acceptable. On the other hand a Spanish resident British citizen could not own a British registered ship on the SSR because s/he does not meet the residency requirement for the UK. Called a rock and a hard spot!

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
As you will see the original question on this thread was to do with a British citizen resident in Spain who wanted to buy and use a boat in Spain. In this case s/he would have to register the boat in Spain and pass the test (in Spanish). An ICC would not be an acceptable substitute

[/ QUOTE ]This whole thread has been about showing that this is presently an incorrect statement. I will not repeat the arguments, I think they have already been stated more times than should be necessary. Please study the thread and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Tranona]

You really are a persistent fellow. You have not shown this is incorrect at all. You may think it is because of your warped view, but that is only your opinion not supported by any fact. Not a lot of point continuing this is there? Leave other people to draw there own conclusions.

 

[DavidJ]

Thanks Tranona for your very clear reply. I do have the ICC which I find satisfies most people most of the time but I understand now from the threads above that it's not an officially recognised qualification for Spain.

 

[smee]

If you are a Spanish resident and you use the boat and are caught using the boat by Customs it doesn't matter if the boat is owned by the Queen of Sheba they will go after YOU for the matriculacion tax and insist on it being Spanish registered.

My partner is a delivery skipper, who is resident in Spain and has made frequent deliveries of British registered boats..... the Customs stopped him and bamboozled him with Spanish and went after him for the matriculacion of a multi million pound vessel he was delivering.. it took a very good lawyer to get him out of it!
Be warned... the Customs march onboard and are armed... are you willing to argue the toss in front of them? In this area the Customs boat is a frequent sight with many boats stopped... if the paperwork is less than perfect god help you... they will be onboard for hours until they get what they want and if there's a sniff of some tasty matriculation tax and/or fines they won't let go! Of course you may never have seen a Customs boat in your neck of the woods... but it doesn't mean they won't cotton on to the potential revenue and start.