residencia/boat ownership/Spain

[Tranona]

Please explain. I am not giving you any advice on "EU Law" as I am not qualified to do so. I am simply telling you where to find a summary of the current position in relation to Certificates of Competence for pleasure boat skippers (which is what this thread is about). When you read that you will know that "EU Law" is not involved. If you wish to believe otherwise that is your affair.

Just to give you a starter quote from the article

"There are three main misconceptions about the ICC and its application

1 It is an EU initiative. No, it is a United Nations initiative....."

I can't be bothered to type out the rest, but to suffice to say that it is exactly what I have been telling you.

So, read the article, and if you believe it is wrong, please take it up with the RYA Legal Department. I am sure they will welcome your interest!

 

[LadyJessie]

I have not made any comments at all about the ICC so I honestly don't understand what your comment relates to. It has indeed nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Tranona]

Please read the posts carefully. You introduced the strange notion that there was an EU test of competence - which there is not. I suggested that in your ignorance you were perhaps confusing this with the ICC and CEVNI tests. If you read the article it will make clear what the situation is respect of certificates of competence - and that there is nothing EU on the subject.

 

[JamesFrance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you CERTAIN that a Spanish resident may sail a yacht in Spanish waters without a permit? Albeit a foreign-owned and registered one?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes.

You seem to have misunderstood the EU rules in place since 1993. It does not matter if you are a Spanish, Polish, Swedish or a UK resident; you can sail any EU flagged yacht in any EU waters.

There were some more limiting provisions in place in many countries before 1993, but that is now not more valid. The EU common market was introduced in 1993 and it is now growing larger than ever!

[/ QUOTE ]

LadyJessie, could you please provide a link to the source of what you have stated here, as all the references I can find say otherwise. Unsupported statements are not very helpful.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
Please read the posts carefully. You introduced the strange notion that there was an EU test of competence - which there is not.

[/ QUOTE ]I have already admitted that I worded that particular reply very badly. There is no singular EU test of competence, only national ones. These do however have EU wide validity, which was the point I tried to make. Again, I apologise for my error of expression. I hope I have now corrected that.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
LadyJessie, could you please provide a link to the source of what you have stated here, as all the references I can find say otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting that you have difficulty finding references. I would be very curious to see your references, as what you say go against the very basis of the EU legal structure. Where on earth can you find such references?

I would recommend that you start reading the Rome Treaty and pay particular attention to the clauses regarding free movement. Secondly, you can search the EurLex database (link EurLex ) and use the search words 'nationality', 'freedom of movement' and 'qualifications'. That ought to keep you busy for a while.

 

[JamesFrance]

http://www.nauticalegal.com/content/view/12/27/

 

[LadyJessie]

JamesFrance: that is a website run by one individual 'Yamandú Rodríguez Caorsi'. There are thousands of these personal web sites across Europe with more or less (often less) reliable information. There is no way for me to verify if this information is correct and/or updated.

You need to provide me with an official government web site that supports your comments that I am wrong. If you cannot; I will humbly still maintain that I think the European Court of Justice is correct.

 

[JamesFrance]

I never said you are wrong, I asked for some supporting evidence which you never seem to be able to provide. What do you think the European Court is correct about?

 

[LadyJessie]

I never provide evidence...???? What do you think the European Court of Justice really is? A pub?

Please, you need to research the link and then you are very welcome back with comments/questions. I would be happy to answer any questions you might still have.

 

[Tranona]

So, why did you say there was? And you are still wrong when you say that the national tests have EU wide validity, because they do not.

Once again please read the article I directed you towards which explains the current situation in plain English such that I think even you could understand if you were prepared to recognise that you know nothing about the subject.

 

[LadyJessie]

"explains the current situation in plain English such that I think even you could understand if you were prepared to recognise that you know nothing about the subject."

You have quoted a magazine article. How I am to comment on that without having the magazine?

Lemain; I know you are using your 'Tranona' persona for the edgy personal attacks. But that one was just over the top even by your normal standards. You are just exposing the weakness of your arguments. I will not respond to nonsense attacks, only points of discussion. Please try to maintain some civility here or get off the thread. We are trying to discuss issues that are important to liveaboards here.

 

[Tranona]

I think David would be very upset if you thought I was him!

I suggest you join the RYA then you can also read all about it on the Members section of the website.

I am being civil. I am giving you the opportunity to improve your understanding of the subject so that you dont make untrue statements on this forum. I am not making arguments, either strong or weak. I am simply stating the facts and directing you to an easily digestible summary from an authoritative source. When you read the source it will have all the hard references you need to confirm what it says is correct.

This particular subject comes up very regularly on all the fora because there can be confusion. However, the RYA is the body that represents UK boaters in negotiating with governments and other bodies. In that capacity it provides an advice service on the legal position of UK yachts and their skippers when taking their yachts outside the UK. There is nothing magic or hidden about the legal frameworks or practical impacts except that there are always minor changes and variable implementation. However the vast majority of yachtsmen can travel all over the world without any difficulty if they follow the advice.

If you cannot be bothered to obtain and read this information, then there seems little point in you entering discussions on the subject.

As a special favour to you, if you PM me an email address I will scan the article for you. This will save you the cost of a years subscription.

With best wishes.

 

[LadyJessie]

Stepping back from the personal attacks on this thread, I have looked at another site that gives an example of how very careful you have to be relying on personal web sites for your cruising information. This is what the otherwise very reliable 'Noonsite' (link Noonsite ) have to say about skipper's certifications in Spain:

"Although a Certificate of Competence is not required, many Spanish Harbour Masters believe it is, so it is advisable to have one."

Very different picture again to what we have discussed above. Noonsite is a good example of the confusion of facts out there. Make sure you take very good professional advice in Spain and that means SPECIFICALLY that you should not rely on private web sites (like this or others) for your decisions that can have an important impact on your legal or financial situation. Seek advice; it will probably pay off many times over. (And yes: I have been an advisor in this field so I am prejudiced, but I also know what I do not know.)

Another personal disclosure; The reason why this issue of EU wide accepted skipper's certifications is a very important issue to me is this: I work part time as a delivery yacht skipper. If I would only be able to deliver yachts with the same flag as my skipper's certificate or only in my own country; I would be out of business. It is only thanks to the EU rules that I can work. These rules are very important to me and I have to defend them when attacked and/or misunderstood.

 

[JamesFrance]

"Although a Certificate of Competence is not required, many Spanish Harbour Masters believe it is, so it is advisable to have one."

A perfectly sensible suggestion from Noonsite for British residents on British yachts, which is not under discussion here. Similar to advice often given to motorists to carry 2 warning triangles in Spain, to avoid on the spot fines issued by police who are not aware that this rule does not apply to foreign registered vehicles.

The only reason I am posting here is that I have previous experience of you making statements as facts, which have been far from the truth and misleading to those seeking information. You also claim an expertise which you appear not to have, so people may wrongly assume you to be knowledgeable and be led into an expensive mistake by following your advice.

I again ask you to provide relevant information links instead of yet more dogmatic statements, as for now I find Spanish lawyer's specialist web sites more convincing than your unsupported opinions.

 

[Tranona]

Once again you are avoiding the issue. Firstly we are talking about pleasure yachts, not commercial. And we are not talking about giving personal advice. I am directing you towards the RYA which not only is the certifying body for MCA qualifications including those for commercial yacht skippers, but also issues the ICC.

It is true that Spain requires a Certificate of Competence to sail in its waters. However it has not formally adopted UN Resolution 40 so the ICC is not formally accepted. However like many formal requirements in this area, enforcement is patchy for non-Spanish yachts, according to real life experiences. The same is true in Greece. However Greek authorities will accept an RYA certificate and also an RYA ICC in my personal experience.

I do not see why you describe Noonsite as a "reliable site" that gets things wrong. Sites by definition are neither reliable nor unreliable. They are only a medium for individuals to post comment.

For reliability you therefore should only look to authoritative sources. Posters on fora do, however, provide useful information on what happens in practice.

As you have not taken up my generous offer to provide you with a copy of an authoritative summary of the current situation on licences and certificate of competence I will quote you a little more to whet your appetite.

"(The ICC) is considered a short cut - ie a universal alternative to individual state certification requirements, which in many cases are mandatory and difficult to obtain.

No, a UK (RYA) ICC is intended for British operators on the waters of any state that has adopted Resolution 40, usually on a UK registered vessel.

Only a few countries have formally adopted Resolution 40, and many caveat its application. Some countries may accept an ICC as an alternative on their nationally flagged vessels, but this should not be assumed. The ICC is often accepted by charter companies in other countries as proof that the skipper is competent to take charge of the vessel (even when the vessel is not UK flagged) but this cannot be guaranteed."

The article includes a rather colourful map of Europe identifying the formal position of ICCs in each country.

All this solid, reliable (as far as it goes) information is available to you free of charge from me.

You will note when you read anything to do with registration requirements of yachts and their operation, the "language" is in terms of Flag State and Coastal State, consistent with the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea, which applies whether the state is within the EU or not. As I have said before, EU law has no direct bearing on the subject.

For advice in your own personal situation, I suggest you consult the RYA Legal Department as the issuer of your Yachtmaster (if that is what you have). They will give you the official position as well as warning of the inconsistencies in application. And it is free if you are a member.

 

[Anonymous]

You're feeding the troll

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
For advice in your own personal situation, I suggest you consult the RYA Legal Department

[/ QUOTE ]That would be a very strange advise for me; I have given training sessions to the RYA on this subject. My regards for the RYA Legal Department is very high. I know them very well. They are very good in defending the British yotties within the British national legal environment. That is their remit, They would be the first to say that an issue like this OP relating to EU rights issues are outside of their area of expertise. Their members do not pay them to defend Spainish yotties. They would normally refer you to one of my old colleague's in London on issues like these.

So thanks for your thoughts and proposals Tranona, but this is not a British issue but an EU one. RYA will not help you here. It is not their job.

If you need advise on residency/tax/qualifications across the EU; you need to contact an 'ex-pat' consultant. Be very careful with the multitude of personal web pages on this subject; most are actually incorrect and/or outdated. This is a very specialised subject and it can have a very large impact on your personal equity. Seek personal advice!

 

[Tranona]

If the opinions you have given on here on this subject are examples of "expert advice" then I would avoid such advice like the plague!

And once again Certificates of Competence is NOT an EU issue. Everything I have seen and read on the subject makes this very clear and that the origin is a UN initiative.

I am very happy to be proved wrong, but to do this, you as an "expert" have to point us towards the EU legislation or regulations on this matter. Despite asking you on a number of occasions to do this you have completely failed, so either it is very obscure and you wish to keep it secret or it does not exist. On the other hand you ignore any evidence that I, and others point you toward that say exactly the opposite.

As to help from the RYA., I was not referring to the OP but to your personal situation that you introduced yourself. As you seemed to be ignorant about the validity of your Yachtmaster (if that is what you have) then I suggested that the issuer, the RYA would be best to advise. As you are no doubt aware they are leading members of the European Boating Association which is working on improving the acceptance of the ICC - which you are entitled to have free of charge if you are a member of the RYA and hold one of their qualifying certificates.

My offer of a scanned copy of the RYA summary on the subject is still open. Reading it would certainly fill some obvious gaps in your knowledge.

 

[Tranona]

Think he is already suffering from indigestion!