A
Anonymous
Guest
Eyes rolling skywards and glazing over.... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
residencia/boat ownership/Spain
- Thread starter Shearwater
- Start date
sailorman
Well-known member
Wot about the ssr then /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
JamesFrance
Member
Frankly LadyJ, what I don't understand, as usual, is your ramblings, which never seem to make any sense and are never supported by the evidence available.
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Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Frankly LadyJ, what I don't understand, as usual, is your ramblings, which never seem to make any sense and are never supported by the evidence available.
[/ QUOTE ]C2H5OH?
Frankly LadyJ, what I don't understand, as usual, is your ramblings, which never seem to make any sense and are never supported by the evidence available.
[/ QUOTE ]C2H5OH?
JamesFrance
Member
The solution to all life problems, according to Homer Simpson.
LadyJessie
New member
Lemain: that was fun: I am waiting with baited breath to see what your third persona 'Tranona' will add. He is usually a bit more edgy and he is therefore my favourite.
DrBob
New member
I thought the link LJ gave above was quite good "evidence". Certainly interesting reading.
AndersG
Active member
It's good evidence IF you work on a Spanish merchant ship.
The commission believed that Spain had breached article 39. Article 39 is about freedom of movement for workers. Neither Article 39 nor this judgment of the court has any relevance for this thread.
The commission believed that Spain had breached article 39. Article 39 is about freedom of movement for workers. Neither Article 39 nor this judgment of the court has any relevance for this thread.
LadyJessie
New member
AndersG: I beg to differ. The link to the Court case was in response to Tranona's claim that EU law has nothing to do with a country's maritime laws. I think that clearly shows that he was wrong on that statement. In addition, 'the free movement' part of the EU case law, of which the quoted one is just one of very many, can easily be carried forward to yachting certifications.
Tranona
Well-known member
I shall just comment on the last paragraph. Yes, it is true that you can skipper a yacht under another flag, but that is because most countries do not make it a requirement to have a licence. I have been doing this for years in Greece. Although there is a requirement to demonstrate "competence", but no specific documentary requirement. Some countries accept the ICC, but in fact Greece does not formally recognise it but accepts it.
I do not know the position in detail in other countries - perhaps you will advise the three countries you refer to and then we can check out your statement.
It is still the case that you need a Spanish licence to own and skipper a Spanish registered private yacht. It may well be that you could challenge it under EU law, but as far as I can see nobody has.
As with many things in the EU, state law rubs up against EU ideals, but unless the issue is specifically covered in legislation then it has to be established in case law. It is unlikely that anybody would mount a challenge to Spanish law on this issue because there is no money or mileage in it.
So, while I accept the example you have given for what it is, to say that it refers to private yachts is fanciful!
Perhaps you should try to register a yacht in Spain without a Spanish licence and challenge when you are refused. I am sure we would all like to know the outcome.
I do not know the position in detail in other countries - perhaps you will advise the three countries you refer to and then we can check out your statement.
It is still the case that you need a Spanish licence to own and skipper a Spanish registered private yacht. It may well be that you could challenge it under EU law, but as far as I can see nobody has.
As with many things in the EU, state law rubs up against EU ideals, but unless the issue is specifically covered in legislation then it has to be established in case law. It is unlikely that anybody would mount a challenge to Spanish law on this issue because there is no money or mileage in it.
So, while I accept the example you have given for what it is, to say that it refers to private yachts is fanciful!
Perhaps you should try to register a yacht in Spain without a Spanish licence and challenge when you are refused. I am sure we would all like to know the outcome.
LadyJessie
New member
[ QUOTE ]
So, while I accept the example you have given for what it is, to say that it refers to private yachts is fanciful.
[/ QUOTE ]Let us just agree to disagree on this issue.
So, while I accept the example you have given for what it is, to say that it refers to private yachts is fanciful.
[/ QUOTE ]Let us just agree to disagree on this issue.
Tranona
Well-known member
Why? You have identified that it is possible to challenge state laws in relation to EU principles and legislation. We do not disagree on this point. There are many other examples of this. What you have failed to do is to show that this has any relevance to the subject of this thread. The law as it stands is that if you are a Spanish resident and you wish to own a boat in Spanish waters you have to register it in Spain. To do this you have to pass a Spanish test of competence. Nothing you have said changes this.
This is yet another example of your tendency to make statements that are either untrue or misleading.
This is yet another example of your tendency to make statements that are either untrue or misleading.
LadyJessie
New member
[ QUOTE ]
The law as it stands is that if you are a Spanish resident and you wish to own a boat in Spanish waters you have to register it in Spain. To do this you have to pass a Spanish test of competence.
[/ QUOTE ]You have failed to show that this is the case. It was true 15 years ago, but it is not anymore. EU laws have evolved. We have evolved. You can now take an EU skipper's competency test (or indeed many other qualifications) and they will be valid EU wide. That is something to celebrate!
The law as it stands is that if you are a Spanish resident and you wish to own a boat in Spanish waters you have to register it in Spain. To do this you have to pass a Spanish test of competence.
[/ QUOTE ]You have failed to show that this is the case. It was true 15 years ago, but it is not anymore. EU laws have evolved. We have evolved. You can now take an EU skipper's competency test (or indeed many other qualifications) and they will be valid EU wide. That is something to celebrate!
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
You can now take an EU skipper's competency test (or indeed many other qualifications) and they will be valid EU wide. That is something to celebrate!
[/ QUOTE ]Where and how does one take this test? Does it result in a paper qualification? If so, what is that qualification called? It sounds like an excellent idea; I had never heard of it.
You can now take an EU skipper's competency test (or indeed many other qualifications) and they will be valid EU wide. That is something to celebrate!
[/ QUOTE ]Where and how does one take this test? Does it result in a paper qualification? If so, what is that qualification called? It sounds like an excellent idea; I had never heard of it.
Grehan
Well-known member
Dare I mention the ICC . . . . ? (retires swiftly behind large rock)
Tranona
Well-known member
Wow! We really are in the world of make believe here. This is the first I have ever heard of an "EU" competence test. Where does one take it? Who validates it?
The only thing that remotely resembles what you are talking about is the ICC issued by the RYA, but this has very limited formal acceptance, although often informally accepted - for example in Greece. And this is not anything to do with the EU, but is UN sponsored.
Get this clear once and for all. Yacht registration requirements are an individual state matter. This includes ownership equipment and crewing requirements. Registration is not compulsory in some countries (particularly UK). The requirement for registration if a yacht wishes to enter the territorial waters of another state it has to show evidence of registration to comply with the UN convention. The freedom to keep a boat within the EU for an EU resident is a matter for the EU and is common to other assets. There are no restrictions provided you do not use it in a way that might lead to you becoming resident in the state in which the yacht is kept. In this case the state concerned may require the yacht to comply with local registration requirements.
If you read the long thread on the subject a couple of weeks ago you will find many documented references to the Spanish law. There are also the names of lawyers and other bodies that you can consult if you do not believe what is stated.
Should keep you busy for a while!
The only thing that remotely resembles what you are talking about is the ICC issued by the RYA, but this has very limited formal acceptance, although often informally accepted - for example in Greece. And this is not anything to do with the EU, but is UN sponsored.
Get this clear once and for all. Yacht registration requirements are an individual state matter. This includes ownership equipment and crewing requirements. Registration is not compulsory in some countries (particularly UK). The requirement for registration if a yacht wishes to enter the territorial waters of another state it has to show evidence of registration to comply with the UN convention. The freedom to keep a boat within the EU for an EU resident is a matter for the EU and is common to other assets. There are no restrictions provided you do not use it in a way that might lead to you becoming resident in the state in which the yacht is kept. In this case the state concerned may require the yacht to comply with local registration requirements.
If you read the long thread on the subject a couple of weeks ago you will find many documented references to the Spanish law. There are also the names of lawyers and other bodies that you can consult if you do not believe what is stated.
Should keep you busy for a while!
Tranona
Well-known member
Just a thought Lady Jessie. Is the EU competence test you are referring to the CEVNI test? If so this is again not EU but UN sponsored (Resolution 40) and is a simple test of the "rules of the road" for inland waterways. Its main use is in Europe originally for the Danube river system but now required for canals and rivers in many countries. It is not a requirement for coastal waters.
When I come across people who clearly know nothing about yacht registration and licencing requirements I refer them to the RYA which publishes comprehensive up to date guidance on its website. The summary article in the autumn 2008 members magazine pages 17-19 will tell you all the basics including the legal framework. Suggest you read that before you make any more contributions on the topic.
When I come across people who clearly know nothing about yacht registration and licencing requirements I refer them to the RYA which publishes comprehensive up to date guidance on its website. The summary article in the autumn 2008 members magazine pages 17-19 will tell you all the basics including the legal framework. Suggest you read that before you make any more contributions on the topic.
LadyJessie
New member
Sorry, that was badly worded. What I should have said was 'a skipper's competency test in any EU country'. There is indeed not (yet?) one standardised certificate, just as there are still a lot of other qualifications that are not identical but still valid across the EU. Sorry for confusion caused.
For the rest; I think this is getting repetitive and is not adding any new value to this thread.
For the rest; I think this is getting repetitive and is not adding any new value to this thread.
Tranona
Well-known member
Badly worded or not, such a thing simply does not exist.
Please read the RYA article that I have directed you to and then you will know exactly what the situaztion is. And please get it out of your head that there is somehow an "EU" position on this subject because there is not.
It is only getting repetitive because you seem to ignore what you are told and come back with such wildly untrue statements.
Please read the RYA article that I have directed you to and then you will know exactly what the situaztion is. And please get it out of your head that there is somehow an "EU" position on this subject because there is not.
It is only getting repetitive because you seem to ignore what you are told and come back with such wildly untrue statements.
LadyJessie
New member
Tranona; I will not take any advice from you on any matters related to the EU. I think you have lost credibility on that issue with your contributions on EU law above.
