Removing the rudder thingy

Robert Wilson

Robert Wilson

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No visible signs of fixing on the skeg, stock appears unsecured and to lift upwards.

OK, so I have asked this before, and it was suggested there might be a bottom securing "plate" which has been covered over with "gu" and antifouling. If cleaned-off and removed that might allow the rudder to be eased away and dropped clear. But I can't see any signs of there being such a removable plate, or whatever.

I tried lifting the tiller/stock by a very small amount and I think that it is not fastened in any way and goes right through the rudder blade to a "crook" on the bottom of the skeg. There are two large s/s nuts where the stock exits the "stock thingy tube" which I think may be for adjusting the length/seating of the stock.

As the boat was in the water I didn't want to lift the stock too far as I feared the rudder might fall off and sink away to the bottom of the briney!



The boat is now on the hard and when the surveyor inspected last month he thought that a removable bottom "fixing" covered over with "gu" was unlikely. We had no way of supporting the assembly so refrained from trying to dis-assemble it - and it was blowing a hooley and chucking it down.
As there is minimal wear/movement in the skeg crook the surveyor passed the whole assembly as ok, but recommended I investigate in case of future need.

Any thoughts on how the stock can be removed and how it might be secured through the rudder and/or into the "crook/cup" at the bottom of the skeg?
 
Unless the shaft is in two parts, split at the top of the rudder blade so that the shaft can be pulled up through the tube, then the bottom bearing must be removable. Otherwise the rudder could never have been installed in the first place. Scrape everything off the bottom of the skeg and you will find out how it is attached. My guess is you will find the heads of countersunk screws, probably skimmed over with filler.
 
Tranona said:
Unless the shaft is in two parts, split at the top of the rudder blade so that the shaft can be pulled up through the tube, then the bottom bearing must be removable. Otherwise the rudder could never have been installed in the first place. Scrape everything off the bottom of the skeg and you will find out how it is attached. My guess is you will find the heads of countersunk screws, probably skimmed over with filler.
Click to expand...

Before scraping away, I'm going to try lifting the stock (assuming the shaft is indeed in two parts).
Naturally, I shall have to make sure the rudder is WELL supported before I start!!
 
Highly unlikely it is in 2 parts unless you can see a clamp at the top of the rudder blade. Quite possible to lift the whole assembly but not sufficient to get the pin out of the hole as the rudder blade will hit the hull. Even if you could lift it enough you could not drop the rudder without removing the skeg. Wasting your time doing anything without removing the bottom bearing housing.
 
Some of the terminology being used makes it quite difficult to decipher just what the problem is.
In #5 you say that the stock seems loose in the shaft. Sorry, but what does that mean?
If you actually mean that the stock is loose in the tube, I wonder if the rudder is actually only supported at the top of the tube, (deck level?), and at the keel. In this unlikely scenario, removing the rudder may just be a case of removing the jump ring (the two stainless nuts?), raising the rudder enough to let the bottom of the stock clear the keel, and then lower it down beside the keel. I'm finding it difficult to visualize, sorry.
 
saltylegs said:
Some under water photos of a Javelin 30 here http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/archive_boat.php?boat_id=143 but not too many clues although I do believe if you scrape/grind the bottom of the skeg you should find some type of fitting point.
Click to expand...
Similar to the Co32 & that is glassed on with a flat bar / bearing machine screwed up into the skeg with the faring piece glassed in place over the bar.
Not at all impressed with that suveyor
 
We used a 'submerged' container to remove ours - took it clean off in a few seconds no problem :-)

If you don't fancy that a few pictures of the internal bearings and skeg might help. I have seen many many different ways of securing rudders so a picture or two would help.
 
NormanS said:
Some of the terminology being used makes it quite difficult to decipher just what the problem is.
In #5 you say that the stock seems loose in the shaft. Sorry, but what does that mean?
If you actually mean that the stock is loose in the tube, I wonder if the rudder is actually only supported at the top of the tube, (deck level?), and at the keel. In this unlikely scenario, removing the rudder may just be a case of removing the jump ring (the two stainless nuts?), raising the rudder enough to let the bottom of the stock clear the keel, and then lower it down beside the keel. I'm finding it difficult to visualize, sorry.
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised you're having difficulty! Many apologies for the confusing terminology. It's a set-up with which I am totally unfamiliar.

Basically, the bottom of the rudder sits in a "cup" on the skeg. There is obviously something like a pin/bolt locating the rudder into the cup.
I assume (dangerous) that this pin/bolt is part of the stock (? correct term) which may go all the the way up through the inside of the rudder (in a tube?) and then up through the hull to terminate at the hinge-fitting on the tiller.
At the top of the stock and below where the "tiller hinge" fastens to the stock with a clamp (tightened by a bolt) there are two latge s/s nuts, one atop the other; these appear to be "lock nuts".
I thought these nuts were to prevent upward and/or downward movement of the stock, but when I adjusted them this season (after tiller maintenance and replacement) the whole stock seemed to lift about a centimetre.
This is what makes me wonder if the stock would actually lift right out.

However, if that is the case, I wonder what holds the bottom of the stock into that cup on the skeg. HOPEFULLY not just gravity........

I hope the above is helpful to you all, and I thank you all for your responses.
 
saltylegs said:
Some under water photos of a Javelin 30 here http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/archive_boat.php?boat_id=143 but not too many clues although I do believe if you scrape/grind the bottom of the skeg you should find some type of fitting point.
Click to expand...

Well found, sir. That is actually my boat, before I bought her through Western-horizon!
Can any of you see any sign of a fitting where the rudder meets the skeg?
I accept a fitting may have been filled over and faired, but if so it's very accomplished job.
 
sailorman said:
Similar to the Co32 & that is glassed on with a flat bar / bearing machine screwed up into the skeg with the faring piece glassed in place over the bar.
Not at all impressed with that suveyor
Click to expand...

I'm not judging the surveyor, at this point. He did inspect the operation and movement of the rudder, which I have to admit appeared satisfactorily sound (to me too).
However, as I accept that three failures on a boat you definitely don't want - the keel, the mast and the rudder - they are the three I concentrate on at the moment - starting with the rudder.
Most other things can be dealt with within reasonably practical grounds.
Not suggesting things like fire, holing, explosion, MOB fall into the "failure" category of perils.
 
temptress said:
We used a 'submerged' container to remove ours - took it clean off in a few seconds no problem :-)

If you don't fancy that a few pictures of the internal bearings and skeg might help. I have seen many many different ways of securing rudders so a picture or two would help.
Click to expand...

Problem is that the whole assembly is "out of sight" within a casing from where the stock enters the hull to where it exits into the cockpit and meets the tiller.

I like the idea of a submerged container, but as the boat is on the hard that wouldn't be necessary. I still need to work out how the wretched thing can be removed!
 
Hadenough said:
Looks like a hinge to me! Does the stock pull up through the whole thing?
Click to expand...

I don't know - yet. It's job I want to do on a calm, dry day - and we haven't many of those since early November!!!

I'll support the rudder, just in case the whole thing falls off when/if the stock does pull right out (upwards).
I don't know which I'd rather find out; that it's in a sod-of-a-hidden-fitting on the skeg or that it just "sits there" waiting for a big wave to sluice it clear of the skeg!!
If the latter, surely there must be some sort of clamp between hull and tiller. But as it's all out of sight I'm bug**red if I can think where it might be and how I can get at it.

I'll try lifting first as I'd rather not scrape/file/chip away the skeg and find nothing there.
 
Robert Wilson said:
I don't know - yet. It's job I want to do on a calm, dry day - and we haven't many of those since early November!!!

I'll support the rudder, just in case the whole thing falls off when/if the stock does pull right out (upwards).
I don't know which I'd rather find out; that it's in a sod-of-a-hidden-fitting on the skeg or that it just "sits there" waiting for a big wave to sluice it clear of the skeg!!
If the latter, surely there must be some sort of clamp between hull and tiller. But as it's all out of sight I'm bug**red if I can think where it might be and how I can get at it.

I'll try lifting first as I'd rather not scrape/file/chip away the skeg and find nothing there.
Click to expand...
PM me when you find as in #10
 
If I was a gambling man, which I'm not, I would bet that there is some way of removing the bottom bearing from the skeg, then dropping the whole rudder and shaft down through the bottom of the hull. Might require the boat to be raised in a crane/boat lift in order to get enough height to drop it though.
 
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