Removable wind generator pole?

Yellow Ballad

Yellow Ballad

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At the moment for my (day and weekend) sailing my 50w solar panel and a bit of motoring keeps my small battery bank topped up very well but as family grows we will hopefully be using the boat for longer trips away. I would like to fit a fridge and heater in the future to keep SWMBO and myself happy and an extra leisure battery to cope but I'm thinking prematurely about extra/alternative charge capacity.

I've never liked arches/poles on smaller boats like the Ballad but I think I will need to think about wind in the future. I'm looking for ideas on removable poles so it can be taken off for the rest of the time, possibly some sort of tabernacle on the pushpit, deck plug for the lead?

Any ideas/pictures greatly appreciated.
 
Better off with a solar panel. You can fix them in a variety of temporary ways, or even just lay one on the deck. Wind is expensive compared to solar and they are noisy.
 
+1 Wind will probably cost about 8-10 x solar for a given average Ah/day during the summer months.

e.g.
Rutland 913 averaged about 7-10Ah/day each summer from 2010-2017 (W. Scotland, France, Spain, Italy)
Even a 40W panel should just beat that average output on S. coast of UK.
 
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Yes more solar is an option and one I'll do aswell I imagine, but watching "Freerange sailing" on youtube pumping in 10amps via their wind generator the other week got my attention. With our weather it probably wouldn't be a bad thing having an alternative method especially as I don't have shorepower and on a mooring. I've just looked and christ they are a bit more than I thought they were.

Like I say this is all premature but as I'm not sailing, I'm thinking about sailing.
 
Yellow Ballad said:
Yes more solar is an option and one I'll do aswell I imagine, but watching "Freerange sailing" on youtube pumping in 10amps via their wind generator the other week got my attention. With our weather it probably wouldn't be a bad thing having an alternative method especially as I don't have shorepower and on a mooring. I've just looked and christ they are a bit more than I thought they were.

Like I say this is all premature but as I'm not sailing, I'm thinking about sailing.
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I know that it just feels as if there should be a lot more energy from wind power than solar (you can feel is pushing you on a windy day). Unfortunately, the amount of energy you can grab from solar is quite large and wind turns out to be a damp squib, unless you keep your boat on an exposed mountain top. :D:D

I remember getting 120-140Ah/day a couple of times when wind was blowing like stink for several days. However, I also remember that the vast majority of days got only 0-2Ah/day. We had a med. hurricane pass over us recently and still had power problems because it was cloudy and we'd hidden from the wind. We got 45knots but it was gusting all the time and average wasn't enough to counter loss of solar over a week.
 
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timmygobang said:
Having had to remount the Rutland the other day, it's not something I'd want to do very often. The wind gens heavy and the blades fragile.
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No problem with mine as pole designed to pivot across stern. It ends up exactly where needed to be removed for storage. I stick it in a locker and never had any blades break. They seem quite resilient to slight bending forces.

It will be trickier this year with new arch beside it. The arch is designed to tilt backwards to allow wind gen pole to hinge down. I haven't tried it yet​ but should be OK.
 
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Solar is undoubtedly marvellous but it does not seem to work quite so well on cloudy days, when it is raining and at night. The effectiveness is also reduced in winter and to a lesser extent in spring and autumn - when the sun is lower.

We use a mix, LVM wind/water gen and solar (and with a cat we have lots of 'roof' space) - but would not be without wind - and we live in sunny Oz. We have the aero4aquagen and I do wish we had bought the 6 and we have thought of buying a second unit. The idea these units are noisy does not apply to the LVM units (sadly no longer available) and I assume other units may also be silent.

With a family there is no such thing as too much electricity and as the children get older their ability to need power increases geometrically. You need to think carefully of the increased size of the house bank and what sort of battery(ies) you are going to install. No point in producing oodles of power if your batteries are too small.

Cheap units are available from China and the Chinese are at the forefront of wind developments but I have no experience of them, but there has been the occasional thread.

Removable poles are easy - stainless comes such that you can buy a pole that fits neatly inside the next size up. Bolt a section to your transom, we used very large 'U' bolts and then drop the pylon in. We brace with dyneema - though we do not remove the pylon.

The greatest skill required is locating the pylon and getting the height right such that it is not shadowed by anything.

The other thing to consider - add an extra alternator - the engine is meant to be an auxiliary and if you use it as such you will have a power source sitting there under-utilised. If you do use the engine to generate electricity you may as well maximise the power given the noise and annoyance they generate.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Solar is undoubtedly marvellous but it does not seem to work quite so well on cloudy days, when it is raining and at night. The effectiveness is also reduced in winter and to a lesser extent in spring and autumn - when the sun is lower.

We use a mix, LVM wind/water gen and solar (and with a cat we have lots of 'roof' space) - but would not be without wind - and we live in sunny Oz. We have the aero4aquagen and I do wish we had bought the 6 and we have thought of buying a second unit. The idea these units are noisy does not apply to the LVM units (sadly no longer available) and I assume other units may also be silent.

With a family there is no such thing as too much electricity and as the children get older their ability to need power increases geometrically. You need to think carefully of the increased size of the house bank and what sort of battery(ies) you are going to install. No point in producing oodles of power if your batteries are too small.

Cheap units are available from China and the Chinese are at the forefront of wind developments but I have no experience of them, but there has been the occasional thread.

Removable poles are easy - stainless comes such that you can buy a pole that fits neatly inside the next size up. Bolt a section to your transom, we used very large 'U' bolts and then drop the pylon in. We brace with dyneema - though we do not remove the pylon.

The greatest skill required is locating the pylon and getting the height right such that it is not shadowed by anything.

The other thing to consider - add an extra alternator - the engine is meant to be an auxiliary and if you use it as such you will have a power source sitting there under-utilised. If you do use the engine to generate electricity you may as well maximise the power given the noise and annoyance they generate.

Jonathan
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All valid points. Worth noting that OP doesn't live on his boat for extended periods and doesn't have a fridge (yet). Wind gen should be quite a long way down his list of things to fit. I'd still say solar first, then more solar next when more power required. Then he can consider alternator, wind gen etc. for later steps.
 
Answering, maybe, another query (tucked away in the script) .....

Our wind gen converts to a water gen. For it wind gen role its up on mast and for its water gen role down on the transom and obviously there is a junction in the cable. We have one cable for each and obviously the gen needs to fit both. We have standard (matching) plugs with an 'O' ring. Mot of the time we use the wind gen role and the plug is fully exposed (we were able to locate the transom plug inside an adjacent locker). They have never been a problem - so if you want to instal something removable (whether that be solar or wind) there are plugs that cause no issues.

Jonathan
 
timmygobang said:
Having had to remount the Rutland the other day, it's not something I'd want to do very often. The wind gens heavy and the blades fragile.
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Having just done the same, I reassessed my situation and concluded that this would be the last time I would remount the Windgenny.

1. Even a medium capacity windgenny is very heavy. Fitting it at the top of its pole (in the absence of a cranked pole) with arms stretched above one's head at the edge of the boat is a precarious activity. In my case the electrical connections have to be made near the top of the pole while supporting the weight of the genny. Not a fun, simple or risk-free activity!
2. My last set of (manufacturer replaced) bearings lasted 18 months before the rumbling became too loud throughout the hull to allow the genny to run overnight, thereby obviating 33% of its 'differentiation' against solar. The bearings needed replacement and the tailfin and blades needed repainting after 4 years (At ~£100).
3. Re-examining the theoretical power sourced from the wind and using UK annual wind speed statistics, the 91x Rutlands might generate 22Ah per day - not exceptional.
4. The relative costs per watt-hour have changed significantly in favour solar in recent years.
5. I've learnt how to avoid some of the pitfalls of solar (Cheap panels that use weather susceptible materials and come with short warranties; Always using tinned heavy gauge connections etc).

No, at the first sign of a problem, my windgenny will be on eBay 'For Spares or Repairs' and replaced by more solar.

Cheers
Bob
 
RIBW said:
Having just done the same, I reassessed my situation and concluded that this would be the last time I would remount the Windgenny.

1. Even a medium capacity windgenny is very heavy. Fitting it at the top of its pole (in the absence of a cranked pole) with arms stretched above one's head at the edge of the boat is a precarious activity. In my case the electrical connections have to be made near the top of the pole while supporting the weight of the genny. Not a fun, simple or risk-free activity!
2. My last set of (manufacturer replaced) bearings lasted 18 months before the rumbling became too loud throughout the hull to allow the genny to run overnight, thereby obviating 33% of its 'differentiation' against solar. The bearings needed replacement and the tailfin and blades needed repainting after 4 years (At ~£100).
3. Re-examining the theoretical power sourced from the wind and using UK annual wind speed statistics, the 91x Rutlands might generate 22Ah per day - not exceptional.
4. The relative costs per watt-hour have changed significantly in favour solar in recent years.
5. I've learnt how to avoid some of the pitfalls of solar (Cheap panels that use weather susceptible materials and come with short warranties; Always using tinned heavy gauge connections etc).

No, at the first sign of a problem, my windgenny will be on eBay 'For Spares or Repairs' and replaced by more solar.

Cheers
Bob
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Just curious about the theoretical output using UK average wind speeds. Is that total available output or have you already factored in the efficiency of the wind gen. I can't remember exactly but seem to remember that the Rutland 913 is around 30% efficiency.

That would make 22Ah/day more like 6.6Ah/day . I usually got around 7-10Ah/day on average during summer on W. Coast of Scotland (Possibly windier than UK average).

Is the 22Ah/day averaged over the whole year, not just summer? That would account for the higher than expected figure.


I got around the weight problem by fitting a hinged base at just the right angle to fold across the gate in the transom. It lies just above the pushpit when down and is a doddle to remove and refit. The weight is low down and I fit a safety line from the tail up to the awning support. That keeps the tail up and makes it easier to handle.
 
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Mistroma said:
Just curious about the theoretical output using UK average wind speeds. .......Is the 22Ah/day averaged over the whole year, not just summer? ...............................
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There is no academic rigour in any of my numbers. As part of my decision process, I looked into the comparative windgenny figures published in Yachting Monthly (October 2010) out of curiosity. The article suggested that 44Ah/day was a "realistic indication of the power each unit is likely to generate through the year". This equates to 1.8Ah per hour or said another way – an average output of 1.8 A. I had my doubts.

The data in the article gave wind strength (percentage of time - annual is implied) and output A:-
0 to 8mph – 40% - 1.2A
8 to 14mph – 35% - 1.5A
14 to 20mph – 20% - 3A
20 – 34mph – 3% - 6A
>34mph – 1-2% - 12A

The 1.8 seems to be calculated as follows
1.2x0.4=~0.5
1.5x0.35=~0.5
3x0.2=0.6
6x.03=~0.2

I’d be inclined to move the results down a band. This gives

1.2x0.35=~0.4
1.5x0.2=0.3
3x0.03=~0.1
6x0.015=~0.1

This totals to 0.9, which equates to my 22Ah per day.

Given this would be averaged over the year, your number sound good to me.

Nevertheless, even at 44Ah/day, I would still be sticking to solar in future, so my non-academic numbers become 'academic'.

Cheers
Bob
 
RIBW said:
There is no academic rigour in any of my numbers. As part of my decision process, I looked into the comparative windgenny figures published in Yachting Monthly (October 2010) out of curiosity. The article suggested that 44Ah/day was a "realistic indication of the power each unit is likely to generate through the year". This equates to 1.8Ah per hour or said another way – an average output of 1.8 A. I had my doubts.

The data in the article gave wind strength (percentage of time - annual is implied) and output A:-
0 to 8mph – 40% - 1.2A
8 to 14mph – 35% - 1.5A
14 to 20mph – 20% - 3A
20 – 34mph – 3% - 6A
>34mph – 1-2% - 12A

The 1.8 seems to be calculated as follows
1.2x0.4=~0.5
1.5x0.35=~0.5
3x0.2=0.6
6x.03=~0.2

I’d be inclined to move the results down a band. This gives

1.2x0.35=~0.4
1.5x0.2=0.3
3x0.03=~0.1
6x0.015=~0.1

This totals to 0.9, which equates to my 22Ah per day.

Given this would be averaged over the year, your number sound good to me.

Nevertheless, even at 44Ah/day, I would still be sticking to solar in future, so my non-academic numbers become 'academic'.

Cheers
Bob
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Ah. I worked from swept area, average wind speeds each month, air density etc. to get a theoretical daily output. I then estimated the 913's efficiency based on published data for small wind turbines to get an estimate based on theoretical values.

This was many years ago and I mislaid the calculations and data. I was interested in your calculations and assumed you had used a similar process. I was enlightening when I carried out a similar process for solar and realised how much better that would be, even with low efficiency of panels at that time.
 
What wind gen do you have out of interest?

Just the weight of the wind gen itself cracked the facia when I rested it on the floor. I have a 30ft boat so guess it depends on how big your storage space is :) Not much on mine lol

Mistroma said:
No problem with mine as pole designed to pivot across stern. It ends up exactly where needed to be removed for storage. I stick it in a locker and never had any blades break. They seem quite resilient to slight bending forces.

It will be trickier this year with new arch beside it. The arch is designed to tilt backwards to allow wind gen pole to hinge down. I haven't tried it yet​ but should be OK.
Click to expand...
 
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