Registration of yachts

[boatmike]

Following the interesting thread on Ensigns there are some unanswered questions raised by Eloise (Ex-Bambola). I now believe my assumption about him wearing a Red Ensign was wrong.
There is no doubt that a standard test in deciding whether a ship is British or not was always that one should look to her colours and the nationality of her master. In some cases however the nationality of the master will be different to the registration of the ship. We have ships registered to Libya, Lichtenstien, Luxembourg etc that are "owned" by "shell" companies registered there when the real owners may be Chinese, and the master Hindustani! It appears that when so registered these ships should wear the colours of the port of registration. (Flags of convenience?)
The merchant shipping act of 1995 however gives certain exceptions for vessels of less than 50 tons in that British registered vessels of less than this size dont need registration in UK waters and dont need to carry any ensigns at all so long as they don't go abroad.
I believe the majority of us that SSR register our boats of less than 50 tonnes do so because foreign countries require us to. This is a lesser registration than "full" registration however.
If I am a British subject and have an SSR registered boat but keep it in France I still fly the red Ensign I am sure but if I go to France and buy a French boat that is
under 50 tonnes is there a similar system to SSR that is not full registration? If so can I wear the Red Ensign if I buy it without changing the registration or do I have to cancel that registration and register under SSR before I can? Indeed if I buy it don't I have to change the registration anyway and don't you have to be a Frenchman to hold French registration as I believe the SSR is only available to British subjects? Or indeed can a Frenchman buy a yacht in England and register it under SSR and fly a red ensign? (I think not)
I now believe that the ensign goes with the vessels registration but I also believe registration expires with change of ownership so Eloise should re-register under SSR here in the UK in order to fly a red ensign. Am I correct?
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[ParaHandy]

have you tried the Bishop of London? To establish whether a vessel is authentically British, he alone is the authority on whether you are qualified to conduct a marriage service, recognised in Britain, onboard a ship. I mean, one can assume that if the vessel and skipper qualify then what more authority do you need if you've Him on your side ... that settles UK registration, dunnit?

 

[boatmike]

I met the Bishop when he was conducting the blessing ceremony on one of City Cruisers boats on the Thames. It was the day of the millenium eclipse. Just as they were conducting the service downstairs the skipper turned to me (builders representative) and said. THE TEMPERATURE ON THE ****ing PORT ENGINE IS RISING """" IT. I THINK THE ****ing SEAWATER INTAKE IS FULL OF THEM ****ing SHRIMPS AGAIN!!! Unfortunately the loudspeaker to the lower decks was switched on and it rather interrupted the bishops flow..... So I don't think I will go back there somehow if you don't mind......

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no doubt that a standard test in deciding whether a ship is British or not was always that one should look to her colours and the nationality of her master.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are going to kill me for this, but, to be accurate: you only look to her colours, and NOT the nationality of her master.


[ QUOTE ]
The merchant shipping act of 1995 however gives certain exceptions for vessels of less than 50 tons in that British registered vessels of less than this size dont need registration in UK waters and dont need to carry any ensigns at all so long as they don't go abroad.

[/ QUOTE ]
They DO need to carry an ensign even if they don't go abroad, they are just not obliged to fly it UNLESS one of HM ships gives a signal.


[ QUOTE ]
If I am a British subject and have an SSR registered boat but keep it in France I still fly the red Ensign I am sure but if I go to France and buy a French boat that is under 50 tonnes is there a similar system to SSR that is not full registration? If so can I wear the Red Ensign if I buy it without changing the registration or do I have to cancel that registration and register under SSR before I can?

[/ QUOTE ]
Can't tell you about French registration system, but no you couldn't fly the red ensign unless you deregistered (as French law would probably require you to do, unless possibly you were resident in France). Strictly speaking I suppose you wouldn't have to re-register under SSR (because English law doesn't require you to register boats under SSR.


[ QUOTE ]
Or indeed can a Frenchman buy a yacht in England and register it under SSR and fly a red ensign? (I think not)

[/ QUOTE ]
A Frenchman can register under SSR, but ONLY if he's living in the UK.


[ QUOTE ]
I now believe that the ensign goes with the vessels registration but I also believe registration expires with change of ownership so Eloise should re-register under SSR here in the UK in order to fly a red ensign. Am I correct?
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[/ QUOTE ]
Couldn't find Eloise's original post so don't know the situation. Note: registration doesn't automatically expire with change of ownership - obviously someone has to tell the registry!

 

[Ships_Cat]

now believe that the ensign goes with the vessels registration but I also believe registration expires with change of ownership so Eloise should re-register under SSR here in the UK in order to fly a red ensign. Am I correct?

Exactly so regarding the ensign.

On the expiry bit it is an offence (in every place I know of) for the seller of the vessel to not notify the registrar of ships if the vessel has been sold and is no longer entitled to be on the register eg if the new owner does not qualify (in nationality). If no longer entitled to be on the register the seller must have it removed. If the vessel is not removed from the register ie the new owner qualifies, then the new owner must transfer the ownership to himself.

For some secondary registers (SSR is a secondary register) on sale of the vessel the vessel is always removed from the register upon advice of sale and the new owner has to start from scratch with a new application. I don't know if that is the case with SSR.

Apologies if I have doubled up on anything that you already knew Mike.

John

 

[Sea Devil]

There appear to be different rules for different countries - The UK rule states that the boat can be registered - part 1 or SSR if the owner is a British citizen and resides in the UK. (there are some exceptions like is a British citizen and pays taxes in the UK but resides abroad) So if as a BC living in the UK you buy a French reg boat in France you should register it part 1 or SSR and fly the British Ensign -

If you a yank or French or ... living and paying tax in the UK you cannot UK reg and fly the Ensign..

The impression I get with the French is that provided you have an address in France you can register it as a French boat and fly the tricolour.

When I asked about this the registration was very simple and available - but the vessel then has to abide by French legislation and that is quite demanding - also if you pay tax in France then there is a wealth tax associated with owning a boat...

As I said before countries like Caymans, Gibraltar, Panama, CI,s make money from allowing vessels to register with them and make the legislation re safety and crewing - insurance etc very minimal if they exist at all.. So a British master of a Panamanian vessel does not need to comply with British legislation in British waters..

I am not a lawyer or accountant but that is my understanding of the laws...

 

[boatmike]

I'm not a lawyer either Michael and am only really interested in the practicalities of the situation which are becoming clear I think. I believe you would be best served by registering Eloise under the SSR would you not? Then you can fly the duster wherever you keep the boat and wherever you live because you are a British subject, Is that not true?....

 

[boatmike]

Exactly so John. Perhaps with lawyers on the forum I should choose my words more carefully! I was ignoring who is supposed to notify whom. The key point is that the registration is not something you can take over automatically when you buy a boat. It is required that it be re-registered in the name of the new owner so Michael might as well register Eloise under the SSR scheme.

 

[Ships_Cat]

On the ..resides in the UK... bit Micheal - I have not specifically checked re the UK register but registers generally allow the owner to reside elsewhere but in that case a representative person must be appointed and domiciled in the state of registration and must usually be of the nationality of the vessel.

I would be surprised if the UK was not the same as is important on secondary registers for allowing vessels to free range internationally with the owner on board, and for the main register for company ownership where the company's owners are not domiciled in and/or do not have an office in the state of registration.

John

 

[Guest]

Without knowing Eloise's situation it's hard to comment - but, do I understand right that the problem is that Eloise is a British subject but not resident? If so, then you might like to look at Part 1 registration, as that has different residency rules to SSR.

The MCGA website has leaflets which describes who can register under both Part 1 and Part 3 - these leaflets say that you can register if you are a "British citizen" without referring to where you live.

You can read about SSR here: http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/reg_on_small_ships_msf_1312_4.01.pdf

and about Part 1 here:

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/uk_registration_brochure_english.pdf

However, Eloise (ex-Bambola) mentioned this thing about having to be resident, and although the MCGA says nothing about it, I'm pretty sure that that is, or at least was, right. When I registered my own boat, I couldn't do SSR because I was resident abroad. However, I could do Part 1, because there was no residency requirement, so I did Part 1.

I think that either (i) this has changed, or (ii) the MCGA leaflet is inaccurate, or (iii) the SSR application form, which referred to residency, was inaccurate.

Anyway, if there IS still a residency problem under SSR, I'd suggest having a look at Part 1 registration.

 

[Ships_Cat]

For all parts of most registers there must be someone representing the vessel that is resident (I would assume that will be found to be so for the UK Part 1 also) but that need not be the owner. Maybe the reference to residency on the Part 3 brochure can also be allowed to apply to a representative and not necessarily the owner - that is certainly the case in places I am familiar with elsewhere where there is a secondary register for small ships.

In any event, one assumes that the Registrar of Ships office would clear the matter up if asked.

John

 

[Guest]

There is certainly this idea of the local representative for Part 1 (it's referred to in the MCGA leaflet I gave the link to), but I didn't come across it in the Part 3 procedure, and don't see it referred to by the MCGA in the context of Part 3. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.

As you say, best thing is to ask the MCGA. I did the registration about 4/5 years ago, and at that time Part 1 was possible - I think the appointing a local agent was more or less a matter of filling out an appropriate box on the form, if I remember correctly.

 

[boatmike]

OK so answer this one then. How small does a boat have to be before it escapes definition as a SHIP? Do I have to carry an ensign in my rubber dinghy? Should a windsurfer have an ensign? In which case where would he stick the pole? According to you every vessel should carry an ensign regardless of size just in case a warship signals to him.. Please explain....

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
OK so answer this one then. How small does a boat have to be before it escapes definition as a SHIP? Do I have to carry an ensign in my rubber dinghy? Should a windsurfer have an ensign? In which case where would he stick the pole? According to you every vessel should carry an ensign regardless of size just in case a warship signals to him.. Please explain....

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably it is right in theory that it can apply to any size vessel at all. The statutory definition of "small ship" is "a ship less than 24 metres in length ("length" having the same meaning as in the tonnage regulations)."

Unless there has been a decision in the case law working out whether this includes a dinghy (I imagine that there have been plenty of decisions about what the word "ship" means, although I'm not sure that anyone has had the time money or inclination to bring a case working out whether it includes a dinghy - unfortunately I don't have the time, money or inclination to trawl through the caselaw /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). My suspicion is that an HM ship probably technically has the right to challenge a dinghy. Whether they ever have ever done so in practise...

If there isn't any caselaw on the issue, then you have to look at the common sense meaning of the word - common usage, and also try to work out the intention of parliament from the context. On that basis, I'd say it wouldn't include a windsurfer. But it's clear from the Act that it can include something pretty small, smaller than we might normally think of as a "ship", as it refers to "small ships" as being under 24 metres. No bottom limit mentioned.

Have to dash now! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

p.s.

This is the sort of question that would have delighted A.P. Herbert's Albert Haddock. Have you read "Uncommon Law"?

 

[boatmike]

I was thinking of the windsurfers "bottom" limit when I asked where you suggest he stick his flagpole......
I think you recognise the point that to be pedantic in interpreting any law misses the spirit and intent of it. The spirit and intent behind not requiring a UK owned vessel under 50 tons to fly an ensign in UK waters is to not place unreasonable restrictions on local craft or very small craft obviously not capable of making international voyages. Vessels that go to sea and make international voyages are more strictly controlled of course regardless of size but I know of no case where a small yacht has ever been taken to task for not carrying a proper ensign or wearing it in UK waters. Do you? The people who enforce these laws are happily still realistic about their spirit and intent rather than pedantic about detail.

 

[Guest]

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yes, sure, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that dinghies should wear an ensign. For 'normal' yachts though, I would. Apart from the fact that it's traditional, not having one can look suspicious and attract unwanted attention, especially these days.

I once met a British yacht that had been cruising down the Channel, They had been stopped and searched at sea several times in a row (six, if I remember correctly, but maybe my memory is exaggerating). They reckoned that it was because their yacht's name included the word "Spy" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've also been buzzed by an official helicopter on more than one occasion that hovered over our stern, for example once off Dover while I was heading round to the East Coast - no foreign cruising involved. I don't know if they'd lost someone and were trying to read my boat's name, or were trying to work out if our movements were suspicious, but I suspect the latter (and it wasn't a SAR chopper). If we hadn't been flying an ensign, I think it may have increased the chances of a patrol boat coming to inspect.

 

[Birdseye]

One point that seems to have been missed so far. The rules that apply to you and your boat whilst you are in France are the French ones. Whatever the British laws on registration say is irrelevant - you are in French jurisdiction. The French rules make allowance for boats in transit just like everyone else rules.

I believe that if you are resident in France and the boat is kept there, you have no option these days but to register the boat under the French flag. certainly, thats what happened to 2 paddies that I met. They were allowed to keep their imported Brit boat under the Irish flag until they became resident at which point the authorities made them change.

What view the French would have taken of them buying a French registered boat whilst themselves non resident, I do not know.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
One point that seems to have been missed so far. The rules that apply to you and your boat whilst you are in France are the French ones. Whatever the British laws on registration say is irrelevant - you are in French jurisdiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid that's not right. We discussed this briefly on the other thread. British rules still apply to you when you're in France, or anywhere else for that matter. French rules also apply to you.

 

[Guest]

p.s.

before you ask what happens if they contradict each other: the British rules say you're a British ship if you satisfy certain criteria AND you're not registered somewhere else.

So IF FRench law allows you to register there because you're resident (it probably does, as its probably similar to English law which allows you to register in Britain if you're an EU citizen resident in Britain), then in effect you have a choice. If you choose to register in France, then English law say that you are not a 'British ship', and therefore are not allowed to fly the British flag.