reefing a main with a stack-pack

[DogWatch]

Actually I have two questions...

1. Since forever on TC, we have suffered with reefing lines catching us around our necks when the main is down. The boom crosses the cockpit. Obviously external lines. I have considered running the lines through lines of D hoops, but I figure this will just create more hanging loops and add snag points. Only two lines causing problems, the third reef is not permanently rigged as this is above the cockpit when it gets that bad (never had to use it, hope this continues). The problem of hanging lines goes away when we put the cover on when it is zipped inside.

How do other boats cope with this, do they, or do you tidy the lines away and tuck them up into the sail each time for example. We only have a small main, so I imagine boats that are main driven must suffer more than us.

2. The only real solution I have decided will work is a stack-pack which I have all the bits for ready for my slave er, sweet clever excellent at the material side of stuff to put together for us. With a stack-pack the lines will fall into the bag. Question: How do you reef with a stack-pack? I have never sailed with one, do you just tie the reefing point lines around the stack-pack?

I have heard said that many people don't use the lines and just pull down the clew and tack. I have tried this and get a truly horrible shape that would in reality be better put away completely than leave reefed. I also can't understand why sails have used these for centuries and now it is decided for convenience we can just disregard them, shirly that can't be right, can it?

Sorry to ask basic questions...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

DogWatch - I dont have a stack pack. When I lower the sail I pull the reefing pennants back and coil up the slack (at the mast in my case). Before hoisting I haul the reefing pennants out from the boom end. When hoisting and lowering I motor with the wind just shy of dead ahead i.e. over one of the bow sides so that the pennants fall to the side of of the cockpit and not on top of the crew.

When I did have a stack pack fitted, with full length battens, I had to be head to wind to drop easily. If not head to wind the friction was a bit much, probably more to do with a worn out batten car system. I can not remember the pennants being as much of an issue with the stack pack. I suspect they self stored along the boom naturally as the sail is constrained by the lines and boom bag.

 

[ditchcrawler]

With my stackpack when the main is down I just tuck the lines inside the stackpack.Usually the stackpack has slots cut in the side of the bag near the bottom to allow the short ends of the reefing lines to go through before being attached to the boom.My bag has velcro slots,others have zips so you can position the slot at right angles to the tie off point.It is also important that the zip goes right to the stern end (clew) of the boom so the lines run freely when reefing.The best thing would be for you to look at stackpacks on other boats to see the alternatives and make sense of what I am trying not very well to describe.

 

[tawhiri]

Stack pack

I had two slots in the stack pack near the boom to pass the reefing lines through. However after getting a new sail with three reef points I needed to modify the stack pack by getting a sail maker to punch a hole and swage a brass reinforcing near the boom between the two slots. you can see one of the slots with a sail tie dangling

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

We had 3 reefs on our previous boat. The stack pack at the mast end was cut a little short so the pack didn't interfere.

Little slots were made in the pack for the 3 reef lines at the clew end. You cant even see them from the side, but you can see the reefing lines going round the boom.

Very neat and simple.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The reefing lines on a stackpack emerge from the pack through slits cut just above the fastening point of the boom.

TBH its still a bit of a mess when the sail is down as the lines just flop over the side of the bag.

 

[snowleopard]

I have saied with a stacpac for the last 17000 miles and find it excellent. When pulling down the first reef I take the slack out of the other two reefing lines and coil them att he foot of the mast (with a rotating mast, nothing is taken back to the cockpit). When dropping the main there are large loops of reefing lines hanging into the cockpit - these I simply pull forward and drop into the stacpac. There are of course no reef points, the folds at the foot of the sail simply lie in the stacpac.

 

[pugwash60]

I always pull in the reef lines as I lower the sail, this pulls the leach aft and keeps the stowed sail tidier. I know some people find the friction on hoisting a pain but all my lines are at the mast and it's not an issue for me. When reefing I normally put in one or two reefing lines in the reef points (don't tie them under the boom, poke them under the sail above the boom so if your leach reefing line fails the boom isn't supported by the sail at the reef point) if I'm expecting to be sailing for more than a couple of hours to stop the 'sausage' inflating, and it keeps things tidier and reduces chafe. I have lazy jacks and not stac pac and like the system a lot, the cover only takes a couple of minutes to put on and you don't have the stack pack on all the time and any associated problems. If you've not tried just lazy jacks yet I'd recommend fitting them first to see if you actually want the stack pack.

 

[jimi]

I've got a stack pack with two pernament reefing lines.

1) If I drop the full main, I just tuck the lines into the main as it makes it easier to raise next time.

2)when I put in a reef I obviously take the slack out the other reef.

tip:

I've got a carabiner on the stack pack about 5 foot back from the mast, I take the halyard down from the head of the sail (leaving it clipped) round a cleat on the mast and then through the carabiner so the halyard then goes back to masthead, then tighten halyard. This keeps the halyard clear of the mast so it does'nt wrap but leaves it ready for hoisting the main.

 

[Sans Bateau]

As others have said, you need slots in the stack pack so you can fasten the end of the reefing lines to the boom.

We have a fully batten main with RCB batten cars. As for putting in a reef, we have a single line reefing system. Reefing we tend to hove too, this allows us to take all the drive out of the main and makes reefing more comfortable. As we hove too, the end of the boom is to far out over the side of the boat to just tuck the excess 2 nd reefing line into the end of the stack pack, so we just pull in the excess reefing line from the 2nd reef jammer, coiling up the line and leaving it under the spray hood.

This method has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is, if you do need to pop in the 2nd reef, the line is already shortened up. The drawback is that when you take the reef out there is a lot of reefing line to be pulled through. So rather than let the sail pull this up we manually pull it through, first from the end of the boom, then at the mast.

 

[flaming]

I have heard said that many people don't use the lines and just pull down the clew and tack. I have tried this and get a truly horrible shape that would in reality be better put away completely than leave reefed. I also can't understand why sails have used these for centuries and now it is decided for convenience we can just disregard them, shirly that can't be right, can it?

Is there perhaps some confusion as to what you're calling reefing lines? Are you meaning the lines that run through the leach fittings, forming the new clew, or are you meaning the lines along the new foot of the sail used to tie the loose sail to the boom?

If the latter, their only purpose is to contain the extra sail cloth around the boom - so they become redundant as the sail is held by the lazyjacks/ stackpack. And if the latter, then I'm at a loss to explain why they seem to be affecting your sail shape, as they should not be under any load at all, other than gathering up all the loose sail.

 

[DogWatch]

Is there perhaps some confusion as to what you're calling reefing lines? Are you meaning the lines that run through the leach fittings, forming the new clew, or are you meaning the lines along the new foot of the sail used to tie the loose sail to the boom?

If the latter, their only purpose is to contain the extra sail cloth around the boom - so they become redundant as the sail is held by the lazyjacks/ stackpack. And if the latter, then I'm at a loss to explain why they seem to be affecting your sail shape, as they should not be under any load at all, other than gathering up all the loose sail.

Yes this is what I am talking about.

We do have lazy jacks, but even so, it leaves the bottom of the sail so baggy when I pull down the reef that I will still tie the sail down with the ties to pull the middle of the sail in a bit tighter.

It seems nobody else is using them at all, maybe I need to reconsider if what I am doing makes any difference at all, other than it looks neater.

We spent a few hours looking over stackpacks on the pontoons one afternoon and I am familiar with the zip/velcro pockets that are filled to accommodate reefing lines.

As we are building our own, I have considered, instead of fitting clips down either side of the boom, have the pack go right around the boom like a bag, fixed in a few places underneath. This would mean the loose lines I asked about would be within the bag, I don't know if this will work or not. It may cause real problems if they become tangled, especially as our boom is above our head height.

If the lines need to remain on the outside, I don't see what problem a stack pack will cure for us. We have after many alterations built a sail cover that fits between the lazy jacks (3 zips underneath) that only takes less than a minute to put on/take off. Saying that though, the loose lines will remain at the velcro holes and may just fall back into the after part of the bag.

 

[flaming]

We do have lazy jacks, but even so, it leaves the bottom of the sail so baggy when I pull down the reef that I will still tie the sail down with the ties to pull the middle of the sail in a bit tighter.

To me this indicates an issue with either your reefing set up or mainsail. I would not accept a reefing system that did not flatten the sail with just the clew and tack pulled down.

Do you have single line reefing?

 

[DogWatch]

To me this indicates an issue with either your reefing set up or mainsail. I would not accept a reefing system that did not flatten the sail with just the clew and tack pulled down.

Do you have single line reefing?

No, the boom is originally for roll around reefing but I don't use it that way, can't now because of the lazy jacks.

We use the lines through fixed cheek blocks to pull down the clew and lash down the tack to a loop at the inner end of the boom. There is no real way to fit a dual line system as the mast is at the edge of the saloon roof over the cockpit, this also means we can reef from inside the cockpit without resorting to lines all over the boat.

The clew hauls are only pulled back to cleats half way along the mast, we stand on the aft cockpit bench to adjust these, the same with the clew out-haul, though this is always tight so not a problem when it comes to hanging lines.

Maybe I should consider fitting the cheek blocks to cars, but as we only have one sail as a cruiser, I am not sure this would be a viable change. It would also mean having to leave the cockpit to adjust, something I am trying to avoid.

 

[earlybird]

We do have lazy jacks, but even so, it leaves the bottom of the sail so baggy when I pull down the reef that I will still tie the sail down with the ties to pull the middle of the sail in a bit tighter.

A while since I used a sail with intermediate ties, but I don't think that they should be used to influence sail shape. I would have thought there's a risk of tearing the sail.
If the foot of your reefed sail is so baggy, is it because the clew line is not applying any aft tension?

 

[DogWatch]

A while since I used a sail with intermediate ties, but I don't think that they should be used to influence sail shape. I would have thought there's a risk of tearing the sail.
If the foot of your reefed sail is so baggy, is it because the clew line is not applying any aft tension?

How much aft tension should there be, there is some, but it is only a short boom and I don't have much to play with, i.e. setting the cheek blocks further aft may not be that feasible.

I have been considering a new (new or 2nd hand) boom with a few extra inches to accommodate the clew out-haul better as the boom was not designed for loose footed modern sails. I have been paying attention to the thread running currently on PBO about new booms.

 

[earlybird]

How much aft tension should there be, there is some, but it is only a short boom and I don't have much to play with, i.e. setting the cheek blocks further aft may not be that feasible.

I have been considering a new (new or 2nd hand) boom with a few extra inches to accommodate the clew out-haul better as the boom was not designed for loose footed modern sails. I have been paying attention to the thread running currently on PBO about new booms.

There should be quite a pull aft. On my Selden boom, the reefing lines emerge at the end of the boom, so when pulled down, one part of the line is pulling the cringle horizontally aft. I'd have thought this was fairly typical, and is probably where your problem lies.

 

[flaming]

There should be quite a pull aft. On my Selden boom, the reefing lines emerge at the end of the boom, so when pulled down, one part of the line is pulling the cringle horizontally aft. I'd have thought this was fairly typical, and is probably where your problem lies.

I'd agree with this. I'm also worried about the phrase "lash down the tack" that Dogwatch used.
You said your boom was originally for roller reefing, is the same true of the sail? How exactly are you attaching the tack when reefed?

Sounds to me like it's your reefing set up that's the problem here.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I agree with Flaming. With a loose footed sail there should be a slider in the boom track that attaches to the tack and keeps it in contact with the boom even if the rest of the foot of the sail is loose. The reefing lines should come from the end of the boom , through the reef cringle in the leach and then back to the boon at a point maybe 6 inches further aft than the cringle would reach if the sail were stretched out taut along the boom. In other words there should be tension in the new foot of the sail which is formed between the reef cringle in the leach and the reef cringle in the luff.

As an alternative I have seen reef lines simply tied round the boom and relying on the pull aft when the line is taut to tighten up the foot of the sail. Probably works OK is there are no obstructions on the boom to prevent the rope sliding backwards.

 

[snowleopard]

I agree with Flaming. With a loose footed sail there should be a slider in the boom track that attaches to the tack and keeps it in contact with the boom even if the rest of the foot of the sail is loose.

The alternative is to pass the reefing line from the end of the boom, through the cringle and down to an attachment point on the boom. This provides back and down tension. I have to use this arrangement because my boom is fixed in height but it would work well on 'normal' rigs.