gjgm
Well-Known Member
Well..I am currently in Brittany and fuel seems to be euro 1.50...seems the French live with the cost and they have a pretty big boat manufacturing industry?
Red Diesel threat
- Thread starter tico
- Start date
Jim@sea
Well-Known Member
I was in Brittany and saw the crew of a passenger river boat taking 2 x 25 litre transparent containers of what must have been red diesel to their boat.
In the area where I lived in Brittany there was no mains gas so people with Oil Fired Central Heating would use Central Heating Oil (35 sec) which is Red Diesel or (28 sec) which is Kerosene/Paraffin, perhaps that is how it is obtained.
Although in the UK I buy red diesel for my tractor and fork lift when in France my French boat uses very little diesel I buy white.
scubaman
Well-Known Member
I’m struggling with this argument. Maybe ten years ago there was a change in local environmental rules that effectively meant that every waterside fuel station had to build new undergroung structures to bury their fuel tanks in. Existing under ground tanks had to be dug out first and above ground tanks weren’t allowed anymore. A massive job and cost to many small businesses. Yet, there are many very remote locations eg. around Lake Saimaa, with very limited traffic during the short season, that are still offering fuel.
If these small businesses were able to carry the cost overhauling their facilities, i doubt the cost of new pumps and tanks would do much of a dent to the uk boating industry?
maby
Well-Known Member
I would tend to agree with you - there may be some remote areas where leisure sailors get their fuel from commercial vendors and where the supply would dry up if red diesel were banned for us, but the number of boats affected would be small. The majority of leisure boats are concentrated along the south and east coasts of England, getting their fuel from pumps in marinas - they would convert to white diesel very rapidly in order to retain their user base.
If banning red diesel sales is going to damage the boating industry in this country, it will be by closing the door on the widespread tax evasion of claiming 60/40 in the middle of the summer and on boats with no heating installed.
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
What is the issue here? Is it a pollution issue, or a taxation issue? The emissions from engines will not change by using white rather than red diesel. So it must therefore be a revenue issue. HMRC does not seem too bothered by the issue, and the sums involved are not significant to Treasury.
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
First thanks to tico for sending me the discussion document in question. The leisure marine industry may be a relatively small user of red diesel but overall apparently, rebated red diesel costs the Treasury £2.4bn a year which is a not inconsiderable sum of money. The other element to the discussion document is to investigate whether other more environmentally forms of propulsion are available for Non Road Mobile Machinery, particularly machinery working in urban areas. The document seems to have the fingerprints of the nakedly ambitious Michael Gove all over it. He currently seems to be on a mission to inflict costly green willy waving regulations on the UK as a stepping stone to no10. I have no idea whether the document will result in a restriction of the use of red diesel for certain industries but the leisure boating industry might just be caught up in it as collateral damage on the way unless the RYA can do a similarly persuasive job as they did for the EU challenge
henryf
Well-Known Member
Wise words there Mike.
As you say the leisure boat industry is being caught up as a tiny by-product of a larger argument. Of the alleged £2.4 billion in "lost" revenue the leisure boat sector will only account for a minute proportion of that. A far greater proportion, indeed the bulk will be vehicles used off road such as farm machinery where no road duty is due because they aren't on the road.
The next step will be to charge rural home owners who can't get mains gas petrol pump prices for their heating oil.
Red diesel used in urban areas also forms a tiny proportion of the alleged £2.4 billion "loss" especially now that councils are cutting back on grass cutting and hedge maintenance.
The RYA did a good job fighting our cause last time round and I have every faith they will do the same this time.
The shame of it all is that our British boat building industry is actually one of the few success stories in UK manufacturing employing skilled labour who are paid proper wages and selling to the world over.
Henry
As you say the leisure boat industry is being caught up as a tiny by-product of a larger argument. Of the alleged £2.4 billion in "lost" revenue the leisure boat sector will only account for a minute proportion of that. A far greater proportion, indeed the bulk will be vehicles used off road such as farm machinery where no road duty is due because they aren't on the road.
The next step will be to charge rural home owners who can't get mains gas petrol pump prices for their heating oil.
Red diesel used in urban areas also forms a tiny proportion of the alleged £2.4 billion "loss" especially now that councils are cutting back on grass cutting and hedge maintenance.
The RYA did a good job fighting our cause last time round and I have every faith they will do the same this time.
The shame of it all is that our British boat building industry is actually one of the few success stories in UK manufacturing employing skilled labour who are paid proper wages and selling to the world over.
Henry
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Well actually the discussion document explicitly excludes home heating, agriculture and fishing. Quite why agriculture and fishing should be excluded from any debate over red diesel is beyond me, only to say that both industries are political hot potatoes at the moment. It seems it is politically acceptable to give rich landowners a rebate on the diesel they consume but not construction companies using machinery to build much needed housing or indeed, anybody trying to keep a modest leisure boat on the water and which supports one of the UK's few export industries. Arse about face I would say
sailorman
Well-Known Member
The pollution saving made by banning 2T outboards must go a long way to off-set inboard diesel use
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
I don’t believe that 2 strokes have been banned, it is just very difficult to achieve the emissions standards. There are larger 2 strokes that apparently comply. How they do this while burning oil is very interesting.The pollution saving made by banning 2T outboards must go a long way to off-set inboard diesel use
Some of the biggest polluters are garden kit. No emissions treatment on my Suffolk Punch. I do worry about it as I follow it around for a couple of hours every week
Lon nan Gruagach
Well-Known Member
Rich land owners don't do farming. They will most likely rent the land to peasants. Also there are vast swathes of farmland owned by peasants. Both those types of business will go to the wall if subsides are withdrawn.
Results bwing that this green and pleasant land will become a famine ridden wasteland.
But hey Ho, given you childish "green willy waving" insults, you would probably enjoy such a shit tip.
ctva
Well-Known Member
I’m alright Jack... unbelievably selfish and reinforces the preconception of the southern English attitude to the ‘north’.
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
If this wasnt the wrong forum for it I would happily enter into a discussion with you about that
maby
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand me - I was not commenting on the relative importance of the north vs. the south. I was commenting on Mike's apparent suggestion that banning red diesel would damage the British leisure marine industry because it would make fuel unobtainable to many boat owners - I would suggest that the impact on the industry would be due to the increased cost of running a fuel-hungry boat. I don't deny that a higher proportion of boats in the north are moored in places where the supply of unmarked diesel would be problematic - but that is a proportion, not an absolute number. The majority of boats - in numeric terms - are moored in marinas where the management would soon install additional tanks and pumps if the law changed. Any such change in the law would certainly inconvenience the owners of boats moored in harbours or rivers where the only easily accessible source of fuel is the commercial pump and I would have great sympathy for them - but if they all gave up leisure sailing the impact on new boat sales would be small - the majority of the output of the production lines goes into marinas along the south coast.