red diesel supplier

C

colvic987

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 Sep 2003
Messages
2,415
Location
north west england
Visit site
The local garage which used to sell red diesel doesn't anymore, i need to get some for the boat before the november deadline, but won't get to the boat before november, so i need to get some fuel at home, anyone know where in the vicinity of liverpool, widnes, runcorn which garage also sells red diesel..
 
I read recently that if you turn up after November 1 with a 20ltr or smaller can then you will not be charged the tax as it is presumed to be heating fuel. This is great for us as this is generally how we buy fuel.

Some conformation required I think.
 
Hmmmm...by the same token then, if I heat my house with oil (I am on Gas BTW) and have a 3000L tank at home and syphon some off for the boat, the heating oil broker will not actually ask me to declare anything as he is delivering it to a domestic prem so it MUST be for heating. Boats can still use RED so its not like anyone can do a dip check like a car. So I get tax free fuel and who is going to know or care.

BUT.... as I am knowingly using it (some of it) for propulsion so still breaking the law unless I declare it as such to HMRC.

Interesting..............
 
BUT.... as I am knowingly using it (some of it) for propulsion so still breaking the law unless I declare it as such to HMRC.

oh you must be honest when it comes to the HRMC /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
My understanding is that domestic central heating oil in the UK is essentially paraffin, described as 28 sec. Heating oil for some commercial premises is heavier oil (diesel) but oil suppliers won't deliver in domestic quantities.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm...by the same token then, if I heat my house with oil (I am on Gas BTW) and have a 3000L tank at home and syphon some off for the boat, the heating oil broker will not actually ask me to declare anything as he is delivering it to a domestic prem so it MUST be for heating.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are different grades of oil: DERV is a heavier oil than that used for heating, which is halfway towards being paraffin.

And anyway, why would a supplier deliver RED diesel to domestic premises ? It's not as if you have a tractor sitting in the driveway (I presume). All it would require is for Customs to routinely check the delivery list - in the search for 4x4's using Red - and your premises would get flagged up as a suspect.
I know Customs can be a bit 'jobsworth' sometimes - but give 'em SOME credit ...

Why not simply make friends with your local farmer or fisherman, or buy Red directly from those garages in rural areas who cater for small agro-users ?

Possession of Red diesel is 100% legal - it's only what you actually do with it which might be a bit 'iffy'. 'Intention' is notoriously difficult to prove - just make sure you have a plausible story ready if carrying much of the stuff.

Ok - so that's the storyline of my next novel worked out - you didn't think I was actually recommending any of this did you ?
 
Flossdog, I am sadly on heating oil at home and but my supplier will also happily supply red diesel. In fact they calculate the price on the total amount of heating oil and diesel (usually about 1000 litres of each) so I get it cheaper as well.
 
I have just ordered 2000lts from silvey fuels. 49p a ltr.
edit sorry just read your location,silvey only deliver to S.wales and the west country.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Possession of Red diesel is 100% legal - it's only what you actually do with it which might be a bit 'iffy'. 'Intention' is notoriously difficult to prove - just make sure you have a plausible story ready if carrying much of the stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]Have you actually checked out the law on this point or are you guessing? It would be interesting to find out the real legal situation with regard to purchase, storage and use of 'red' diesel and whether the rules are the same throughout the EU (one would hope so, since harmonisation with the EU was a principal justification for the prohibition on using 'red' in pleasure yachts. May one use 'red' in commercial yachts, I wonder, where they are being legitimately used for hire and reward? I believe that you can in the EU.

A question dear to my heart is the use of 'red' in diesel generating plant for production of electricity and CHP in domestic dwellings. In Spain, you can buy 'red' (gasolio B) in most rural areas from ordinary petrol stations. I've never tried to do so and don't know if you have to show any authorisation but has anyone ever seen 'red' on sale in rural UK petrol stations? I haven't, from Land's End to John Groats!

My guess is that officers from HMR&C will descend on some yachts from mid season next year and do some dipping. I believe that you could even forfeit your yacht if you are caught....we are talking Customs here, not the normal Revenue bods.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Possession of Red diesel is 100% legal - it's only what you actually do with it which might be a bit 'iffy'. 'Intention' is notoriously difficult to prove - just make sure you have a plausible story ready if carrying much of the stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]Have you actually checked out the law on this point or are you guessing? <snip> I've never tried to do so and don't know if you have to show any authorisation but has anyone ever seen 'red' on sale in rural UK petrol stations? I haven't, from Land's End to John Groats!


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I live in rural Lincolnshire and know of several petrol stations which sell Red off the forecourt. It's typically sold to smallholders who have small tractors, diesel cultivators and generators, who only need the occasional 5 gallons or so. It's perfectly legal to buy it for off-road use - no ID or declaration is asked for, or required. As it's legal to buy it, it must therefore be legal to hold relatively small stocks of it. (As long as it's not being held in the fuel tank of a road vehicle !)
I live on a plant nursery and have several machines which burn diesel, so I usually have 10 gallons or so of Red on site at any one time. I also have the usual tanks of 28 sec heating oil, which I've tested in diesel engines, but they don't like it much - far less power and it smokes like hell ...

I really don't see how the Revenue are going to police the marine Red diesel situation, as you can buy the stuff from non-marine outlets - unless they are going to adopt a policy of dipping tanks and demanding that receipts of purchase be retained.
 
Don't they have to display some kind of notice by the pump telling you what you may or may not legally use it for? It is clearly illegal to use it in a normal road vehicle but presumably it's fine in a tractor? Tractors often use the public roads.

Would it be legal, I wonder, to use red diesel to run a generator, the output of which is used to charge an electric car? Come to that, could you have a generator running an electric motor in your vehicle and fuel that with red?

I have a feeling that there must be more to it than is coming across at the moment. There must be a list of things that it may be used for or a list of things that it may not be used for, or both? Would the 'lists' be from an Act of Parliament, or some regulations? One would need to find the regulations and any Act plus any legal precedent before being 100% certain.
 
There are different grades of oil: DERV is a heavier oil than that used for heating, which is halfway towards being paraffin.

And anyway, why would a supplier deliver RED diesel to domestic premises ? It's not as if you have a tractor sitting in the driveway (I presume).

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you have a standby generator.
My generator will run on paraffin but doesn't like it.
My boiler will run on gas oil and doesn't care.
 
I know a local garage which has a pump for red diesel. It does indeed display a notice warning that it must not be used for unauthorised road use.
If you are buying less than 20 litres (in a jerry can) there are no questions asked. For more than 20 litres they enter your details in a book, and you have to state use. At present this can be for a tractor, other horticultural machine, generator, or marine use. Obviously next month the marine bit is withdrawn, so there will still be no restrictions on purchases for the other purposes.
But the book will remain as evidence of your purchases, so in theory HMRC can thumb through it and look out for big purchasers they suspect are not really farmers or tomato growers.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Don't they have to display some kind of notice by the pump telling you what you may or may not legally use it for?


[/ QUOTE ] Yes.
[ QUOTE ]
It is clearly illegal to use it in a normal road vehicle but presumably it's fine in a tractor? Tractors often use the public roads.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any machinery which is soley used for agriculture can legally use rebated fuel on the public highway, within a certain distance (forget how many miles ...) from the holding. So that's tractors, pea-viners, combine harvesters etc., which are also exempt from MoT testing, but does NOT normally include (say) Landrovers.

But - if you were to substantially modify a Landrover - say by fitting a full-length roofrack with guard rails - then it could be classed as (for example) a dedicated fruit-picking vehicle. This would then be classed in the same way as a combine harvester - i.e. no MoT and legal to use Red. BUT - you'll need to get the V5 changed to show change of use, and you'll be restricted to useage within just a few miles of your holding. So maybe that would be OK for a run down to the shops, but outside the designated area, or sans modifications, and the Revenue will drop on you from a very great height. Some jobsworth might even ask to see the fruit trees (!), and one Bramley Apple in yer back garden definitely wouldn't wash.

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be legal, I wonder, to use red diesel to run a generator, the output of which is used to charge an electric car?

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting .... it really all depends on what the generator is used for. If for agricultural purposes, then Yes. If for generating light or power for construction machinery, then Yes. If for generating power to charge a car, then maybe No. My guess is that this would need a test case - d'you fancy being the first ?

In practice, using the odd few gallons of Red for an unspecified off-road purpose doesn't raise eyebrows - it's only if you start ordering 300 gallons at a time, delivered to "no.9 Acacia Avenue" that the spot-light will be drawn towards you.

[ QUOTE ]
Come to that, could you have a generator running an electric motor in your vehicle and fuel that with red?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a definite No - you would still be powering the car using rebated diesel - the only difference is that you'd have created an electro-mechanical drive-chain, rather than a purely mechanical one. (I've already looked into this ! - you also can't legally run a dual-engined vehicle, so a diesel-engined 'pusher-trailer' is also ruled-out)

[ QUOTE ]
I have a feeling that there must be more to it than is coming across at the moment. There must be a list of things that it may be used for or a list of things that it may not be used for, or both? Would the 'lists' be from an Act of Parliament, or some regulations? One would need to find the regulations and any Act plus any legal precedent before being 100% certain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't expect such a list to exist. That would be equivalent to walking into a Police Station and asking exactly what behaviour constitutes a crime, and which does not ... Such a list would put thousands of lawyers out of business.

If you're really interested in this, check Hansard over the last fuel-strike period when DERV was in short supply. If memory serves, the law regarding the use of Red was adjusted then to allow it's use in road vehicles during that period, providing records of useage were kept and that the outstanding tax was paid subsequently. There were some concerns expressed in the House about prosecutions based on residual red dye after the exemption period was over. Can't remember all the details now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

W
Budget diesel polishing
2
Replies
26
Views
654
Iliade
Iliade
W
Diesel heater burner mat
Replies
6
Views
212
trialframe
T

Share this page

Top