Reading material on boatbuilding sought

Reptile Smile

Reptile Smile

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Hi all,

There's a slight danger that this will cause all those who know me to either roll their eyes or pinch the bridge of their nose. Nonetheless...

I'm currently entertaining the idea (being a world-class dreamer/planner) of self-building a hard-chine Maurice Griffiths design - most likely a Riptide, and most likely in wood, though I wouldn't discount steel (having a mate who's a welder/fabricator). I've never tackled anything like this before, and it would be great if someone could point me in the right direction of some resources to start me off in understanding the process - books, web resources, anything.

It's particularly the actual process of building I'm after, which I haven't found a great deal of, even on eventides.org.uk, etc.

Any ideas/thoughts/ridicule gratefully received...
 
I have a copy of "Steel Boatbuilding" by Thomas E Colvin, a very comprehensive book covering all the little details that are not obvious. I think it would be worth getting if you decided to build in steel.

Pete
 
www.eventides.org.uk and www.eventideowners.org.uk are both good sources. You will need the latter because they are the source of plans for MG designs.

However, probably best to keep the dream in the dream department rather than try and turn it into a reality. I have a set of Riptide plans and a licence to build one sitting in my filing cabinet along with a budget drawn up 20 years ago when I bought the plans. It frightened me then and would be even more frightening now. You would be looking at material costs of £70k+ if you used new and 3-4000 man hours to build. Just work out how you would carve out those hours from your regular life. Never mind finding somewhere to build for the typical 5-10 years it would take! The design is not RCD compliant so you would not be able to sell it legally for at least 5 years after you finished.

Those designs were drawn up when materials were relatively far cheaper than today and crucially there were very few boats available on the market so it was a good way to get a boat. Things have changed now. Not only are the boats old fashioned, but if you like that style of boat you can buy really good GH 31s for around £30k and go sailing straight away, but still be able to fiddle and upgrade etc if you like that sort of thing.

If you are keen on DIY then you will find a regular supply of part built boats where the builders have not followed the advice and have discovered the hard way how difficult it is to complete a boat of this size. Think there are two good part finished steel Riptides for sale on the Eventides site and if you are really ambitious there is a part built GH39 for sale in Chichester.
 
+ 1. Look out for old Golden Hind for sale.
There was one beside us, bought on ebay for just couple K, with some damage - in fact just a crack in plywood bottom and one rib, otherwise in very good shape. Such boats will not cost 30k if in need of some work, which may involve replacing plywood panels (most probably about deck-cockpit areas) and reglassing on outside, nice work with wood anyway. But you will have all most difficult and costly pieces already there for little fraction of new price. Probably of better quality material also than possible to find now.

P.S http://falmouth.boatshed.com/golden_hind_31-boat-137477.html Not much money to lose, and still may provide quite a few hours of enjoyable woodworking :cool:
 
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Rossynant said:
+ 1. Look out for old Golden Hind for sale.
There was one beside us, bought on ebay for just couple K, with some damage - in fact just a crack in plywood bottom and one rib, otherwise in very good shape. Such boats will not cost 30k if in need of some work, which may involve replacing plywood panels (most probably about deck-cockpit areas) and reglassing on outside, nice work with wood anyway. But you will have all most difficult and costly pieces already there for little fraction of new price. Probably of better quality material also than possible to find now.


P.S http://falmouth.boatshed.com/golden_hind_31-boat-137477.html Not much money to lose, and still may provide quite a few hours of enjoyable woodworking :cool:
Click to expand...

That boat does have potential. However it has been for sale for a long time so clearly nobody has seen potential yet! You really need to know what you are doing to take on one of those that has problems - they can eat money quicker than a fashion conscious wife! I have owned a similar boat from the same builder for over 30 years so have a pretty good grasp of the potential problems. They are fine if, like mine they have not been neglected, but once rot gets into the critical places it can spread very quickly and be difficult to repair properly, particularly if the sheathing has been damaged. They also often have very old underpowered engines and small sail areas so are slow passage makers.

On the other hand a later Erskine built boat with a GRP hull and the bigger rig is a different animal and provided it has not been messed about is well worth considering if you like leisurely cruising in the traditional style.
 
Wouldn't say underpowered for such boat - 20 hp is enough.
I'd say any of those boats, no matter how nice and well kept, will need work anyway. And, quite frankly - old 30 footer is not worth more than 10, 15 k max, no matter what the owners might imagine. With the market as now is no wonder buyers aren't crowding around. Who knows how to work with wooden boat?

Yes, first thing for OP is to learn; but as he wants some handwork for fun...

Easier to put whole planking (not correct word here I guess?) anew on old hull than build the frame; not to mention inside joinery, equipment etc. I would make sheating new anyway, on any such boat, even if still sound. They are not proposition for someone who doesn't want a "project" :)
 
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Rossynant said:
Wouldn't say underpowered for such boat - 20 hp is enough.
I'd say any of those boats, no matter how nice and well kept, will need work anyway. And, quite frankly - old 30 footer is not worth more than 10, 15 k max, no matter what the owners might imagine. With the market as now is no wonder buyers aren't crowding around. Who knows how to work with wooden boat?

Yes, first thing for OP is to learn; but as he wants some handwork for fun...

Easier to put whole planking (not correct word here I guess?) anew on old hull than build the frame; not to mention inside joinery, equipment etc. I would make sheating new anyway, on any such boat, even if still sound. They are not proposition for someone who doesn't want a "project" :)
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But many had 10 hp Sabbs or 15hp Listers - so underpowered. The one I learned to sail on had a hand start Yanmar YS12. You learned to plan your engine use well in advance!

The sheathing was Cascover, which is no longer made. OK if it is sound, but some were only sheathed to the waterline and if rot has started in the bottom panels, usually from leaks around the main bulkhead and cockpit area it is a nightmare to fix. Often bodge repairs with pitch and fibreglass, which makes it worse. Very few of the all wood ones left in really good condition, so either be prepared for the work or pay more to get a GRP hull.
 
For lots of unconventional ideas you could buy Origami Metal Boatbuilding - A Heretics Guide by Brent Swain.

He only deals in cash so send CDN $20 , plus $15 for overseas airmail postage, to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0.


Have fun.

Paul
 
Tranona said:
If you are keen on DIY then you will find a regular supply of part built boats where the builders have not followed the advice and have discovered the hard way how difficult it is to complete a boat of this size.
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Trouble is when you take over somebody's half-built DIY project, you never know quite how good their work has been. The Schinases bought their Mollymawk thinking they were buying a sound hull that just (!) needed fitting out, but it turned out all the welds were in fact rubbish and needed to be ground out and re-done. Had the builder been a slightly less crap welder the problem wouldn't have become apparent until the seams started opening up in a storm or whatever...

Pete
 
Tranona said:
But many had 10 hp Sabbs or 15hp Listers - so underpowered. The one I learned to sail on had a hand start Yanmar YS12. You learned to plan your engine use well in advance!

The sheathing was Cascover, which is no longer made. OK if it is sound, but some were only sheathed to the waterline and if rot has started in the bottom panels, usually from leaks around the main bulkhead and cockpit area it is a nightmare to fix. Often bodge repairs with pitch and fibreglass, which makes it worse. Very few of the all wood ones left in really good condition, so either be prepared for the work or pay more to get a GRP hull.
Click to expand...
+1 again.
Yes, whole hull and deck should be cleaned to wood and sheated in glass/epoxy; not necessarily right away but original cascover is way too old to trust it for future. Cascophen (cascamit) itself is still available, but no reason to use.
As wood lover I would even use glass laminated in clear polyurethane, to show it gleaming :)

I was thinking about such kind boat for myself. In fact those professionally made, by the yard (name escapes me now) mostly were well sheated and hull framing, keel and such of good, sound wood. But topsides in cockpit area... That's why I mentioned. There will be problems, but as long as no rot in main framing still worth to buy - for a handy-man. In fact doing such repair I'd raise the cockpit section level with side-decks to get rid of problem - would be more in style with contemporary bathtube kind boats - while undoubtedly losing some of the character.

Anyway such boat is just an idea for someone who wants to occupy himself with boatbuilding. Much more pleasant work with wood (and proper materials used originally) than on plastic junk kind boats where all those chemicals are involved.
Was she a ton or two lighter - so cheaper road transport possible - I would have one already in my backyard ;) But for those 2000 kilometers cost was equal to boat value...

I also would not buy a "partially built DIY", old professionally made boat is usually better, and the whole idea is to buy cheaply all the equipment, as much of it will be as good as any, just some new parts and repairs necessary.
I doubt greatly such good wood could be found today.

P.S but the rig arrangement on Golden Hind should be changed. Was designed originally for 28 foot boat...
Including taking the mast aft, and bowsprit also would be a nice idea. Did I mention already this is a boat for boatbuilder? :cool:
 
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Take heed from Tranona as most diy builds end in tears unless you have a manic desire to build something yourself and are utterly single minded as you will never complete it and like most diy builds it will lanquish in a boatyard years after your own resolve to finish the project disapeared.There are loads of project boats out there and most of these take up more money and time to complete even boats advertised as needing TLC beware what you are taking on .How do I know ?one beautiful project boat and 5 years on very much admired but still spending!!!
 
And another + 1 from me :D Making about 20' boat took two of us (me and friend) a year, non-stop. This friend later started to build another, sold it at completed hull stage after a year or so, 'cause he changed mind and wanted bigger one. This he got to a hull with some inside joinery - now it's quite rotten after 15 years in the garden of another friend...
And so he has no boat to sail.
 
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prv said:
Trouble is when you take over somebody's half-built DIY project, you never know quite how good their work has been. The Schinases bought their Mollymawk thinking they were buying a sound hull that just (!) needed fitting out, but it turned out all the welds were in fact rubbish and needed to be ground out and re-done. Had the builder been a slightly less crap welder the problem wouldn't have become apparent until the seams started opening up in a storm or whatever...

Pete
Click to expand...

You are right - however the three particular ones I mentioned are not in that category. The 39 is particularly good. Professionally built then left part finished for over 30 years. Real time warp. One of the 31s was well advanced last time I looked, but the other although a well built hull is rather idiosyncratically laid out down below - another problem with buying abandoned projects, you inherit some madcap ideas.
 
Rossynant said:
+1 again.
Yes, whole hull and deck should be cleaned to wood and sheated in glass/epoxy; not necessarily right away but original cascover is way too old to trust it for future. Cascophen (cascamit) itself is still available, but no reason to use.
As wood lover I would even use glass laminated in clear polyurethane, to show it gleaming :)

I was thinking about such kind boat for myself. In fact those professionally made, by the yard (name escapes me now) mostly were well sheated and hull framing, keel and such of good, sound wood. But topsides in cockpit area... That's why I mentioned. There will be problems, but as long as no rot in main framing still worth to buy - for a handy-man. In fact doing such repair I'd raise the cockpit section level with side-decks to get rid of problem - would be more in style with contemporary bathtube kind boats - while undoubtedly losing some of the character.

Anyway such boat is just an idea for someone who wants to occupy himself with boatbuilding. Much more pleasant work with wood (and proper materials used originally) than on plastic junk kind boats where all those chemicals are involved.
Was she a ton or two lighter - so cheaper road transport possible - I would have one already in my backyard ;) But for those 2000 kilometers cost was equal to boat value...

I also would not buy a "partially built DIY", old professionally made boat is usually better, and the whole idea is to buy cheaply all the equipment, as much of it will be as good as any, just some new parts and repairs necessary.
I doubt greatly such good wood could be found today.

P.S but the rig arrangement on Golden Hind should be changed. Was designed originally for 28 foot boat...
Including taking the mast aft, and bowsprit also would be a nice idea. Did I mention already this is a boat for boatbuilder? :cool:
Click to expand...

The original boats were built by Hartwells who also built my boat. Diversification from their main business of office furniture and coffins! Design taken over by Terry Erskine who was foreman in charge of building my boat. He built well over 100 and did the moulds for GRP hulls and also a 26' GRP version then a few 39s in steel. Designs then acquired by Mark Urry (whose boat I learnt to sail on) and he built a further 5.

Cockpit problem can be solved using the GRP aft deck and cockpit moulding from the later boats, but a major job to make it fit a wooden hull.. Cascover sheathing was not always applied well - fortunately mine was as it was done by the makers. Repairs and patching can be done with glass/epoxy. The original Cascover also had a smooth Vinyl coating on top and in places this has come off so on the advice of Wessex Resins I have coated with epoxy.
 
Reptile Smile said:
Hi all,

There's a slight danger that this will cause all those who know me to either roll their eyes or pinch the bridge of their nose. Nonetheless...

I'm currently entertaining the idea (being a world-class dreamer/planner) of self-building a hard-chine Maurice Griffiths design - most likely a Riptide, and most likely in wood, though I wouldn't discount steel (having a mate who's a welder/fabricator). I've never tackled anything like this before, and it would be great if someone could point me in the right direction of some resources to start me off in understanding the process - books, web resources, anything.

It's particularly the actual process of building I'm after, which I haven't found a great deal of, even on eventides.org.uk, etc.

Any ideas/thoughts/ridicule gratefully received...
Click to expand...

Why do you wan to build an old dog. If you really want to do this why not build something with more room & sails better.
Chine may seem ok but if you read the Gudgeon Brothers book there are other easier methods.
I would look for a source of more modern designs & build a nice boat that actually has a resail value.
Some old chine designs would be valueless when built because they are readily available as old boats people have dumped
 
Yes, Terry Erskine was the name. Quality, really well made. Perfectly sound, the one I've seen lately - and very happy owner who was not expecting it to be so good, for so cheap buy :)

To above - exactly. Uneconomical to build now.
Moreover, in case OP would still want to build something - very nice new designs exist for simple chine method and amateur building (both in metal or plywood) but here in Poland or Germany, as here such custom methods of building are still in use. I'm not current in this, but may look. Personally I liked Reinke boats (Taranga, Hydra) fast sailing and well suited for amateur construction. Not a beauty, but looks may be improved should one wish; for cruising she was very handy.
English language site: http://www.reinke-yacht.de/pages/typyachten-e.htm
 
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Many thanks to all for their thought-provoking replies - much to think about there!

Rossynant, it isn't fair or reasonable to point me at boats like that GH. If the wife catches me looking at things like that, she'll go crackers :).

I'll stick to the day job and mild tinkering with interiors for the time being. Won't be swayed from the MG aspiration, though...
 
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