RCD Category C to France?

[Anwen]

I have been considering some boats which are either RCD cat B or C. One of the cat C designs appeals to me very strongly, but I have a reservation about buying one, as I would like to do the odd cross channel trip to France. I have got the impression that if you pitch up in France in a cat C boat having done a trip involving being more than 6Nm offshore, the authorities can give you a hard time, because you have exceeded the safety rating of your boat. Does anyone know if this is the case, or had first hand experience of the RCD rating of your boat being checked as part of the general checks on VAT status, red diesel, safety kit etc?

 

[LostinFrance]

I'm sure I'm going to be contradicted by someone, but I believe that unless the boat's registered in France, they don't have any jurisdiction. Apart from having out of date flares, that is, which is deemed worthy of helping out M Hollands budget deficit.
The only time that I've been stopped by the gun toting taxmen they told me they had no jurisdiction over safety requirements on Uk registered boats, although they did offer to pull it apart in a search for drugs if I didn't shut up. They also fined me 300€ for being a French resident but having a British registered boat without paying the special tax that gives me the right to navigate in French waters - I also need to pay this tax even when my boat is NOT navigating in French waters and is berthed in another country. Ho Hum.

 

[westernman]

I think the RCD category rating is just a suggestion to the owner as to the conditions he might consider his boat capable of. I think you can take any boat whereever you like what ever its category.

I.e. just another useless piece of bureaucracy.

 

[lustyd]

I believe the difference between B and C is mostly safety equipment so you could upgrade that if you're worried. Most boats are not actually coded though so I very much doubt you'd have trouble. Even those designed to code B don't necessarily get coded to B.

 

[Tranona]

There is no direct connection between the RCD category and where you can sail. It is a trade related piece of legislation and the only offence that can be committed in relation to it is a trader cannot put a new boat on the market without declaring its category.

Many people have sailed all round the world in boats that would not meet even category C, simply because they were designed and built before the categories were invented. Having said that modern boats in Category C would not be first choice for going offshore as the design characteristics needed to meet the category are more suited to their intended use - that is estuaries and coastal. There is, however no legal constraint on where and how you use them.

As already suggested, the French authorities will not be in the least interested in the category of your boat, nor in the equipment you carry (with the possible exception that if you have flares they must be in date). They will only be interested in your registration document for your boat and your passport. It is useful to have your VAT evidence, but experience suggests that it is rarely asked for.

Full information on what is required to visit France (and other European countries) is on the RYA website.

 

[prv]

I think the RCD category rating is just a suggestion to the owner as to the conditions he might consider his boat capable of. I think you can take any boat whereever you like what ever its category.

That's certainly the case in the UK, but I thought the French did actually have something along those lines enforcible in law for their own citizens. Possibly the rating system is a close parallel of RCD rather than using the RCD categories directly.

Either way, not a problem for a visiting Brit. You just have to make your own decision on whether you want to be thirty miles from land on something designed for lakes and estuaries.

Pete

 

[Tidewaiter2]

That's certainly the case in the UK, but I thought the French did actually have something along those lines enforcible in law for their own citizens. Possibly the rating system is a close parallel of RCD rather than using the RCD categories directly.

Either way, not a problem for a visiting Brit. You just have to make your own decision on whether you want to be thirty miles from land on something designed for lakes and estuaries.

Pete

The French have a 6nm limit Skipper's ticket and a Offshore Skipper's ticket for anything over 6nm off their coast- if you look at the charts in a copy of BLOC, the French almanac, you'll see the red zigzag 6nm limit marked on there, to remind their nationals.
Mind, none of the French summer sailors can park for toffee- i've got a new pulpit and furlex, and my pal needs a new pushpit so far this year to prove it!

 

[stearman65]

Categorys

I would first check what your insurance company says, if they can wriggle out of paying a claim, this is probably on their list?
Stearman65

 

[Tranona]

I would first check what your insurance company says, if they can wriggle out of paying a claim, this is probably on their list?
Stearman65

Insurance companies seem to show no interest in RCD categories. Never seen any mention in their documentation. They will assess you as a risk based on the boat you have and your claims record. Cruising yachts normally get coverage to sail in coastal waters of the UK and northern Europe within east and west limits, typically River Elbe in the east to Brest in the west.

By granting you the cover on the basis of the information you provide, they would not refuse a claim on the grounds of the RCD category of the boat. If they think the boat is not sutable for the cruising area they would impose a restriction from the start.

 

[stearman65]

Insurance companies seem to show no interest in RCD categories. Never seen any mention in their documentation. They will assess you as a risk based on the boat you have and your claims record. Cruising yachts normally get coverage to sail in coastal waters of the UK and northern Europe within east and west limits, typically River Elbe in the east to Brest in the west.

By granting you the cover on the basis of the information you provide, they would not refuse a claim on the grounds of the RCD category of the boat. If they think the boat is not sutable for the cruising area they would impose a restriction from the start.

Better safe than sorry!!!
Stearman65

 

[Tranona]

Better safe than sorry!!!
Stearman65

In what way? Would be interested to hear of any insurance company that would impose restrictions based solely on the RCD category of the boat.

 

[JesseLoynes]

Currently building to RCD category C.

My interpretation, and the advice I have been given, is that RCD's strongest recommendation is due to conditions of wind and sea, not necessarily distance offshore.

shamelessly stolen from a surveying website:

‘A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

It depends on everyone's interpretation of "coastal". But a channel crossing from the Solent or anywhere East is a day sail, and you should be able to plan for less than force 6 and 6ft chop.

I don't categorise crossing Lyme Bay as offshore sailing, so how can a shorter crossing to France be? Head up to KEnt and you won't be more than about 11 miles offshore at any point, and that is certainly closer than in the middle of Lyme...


There are various different specs on bouyancy, cill heights above water etc between B and C, so there is a distinct difference. But a J80 is "B" classified, so it doesn't automatically mean a big, blue water cruising yacht!

J

 

[lw395]

I have been considering some boats which are either RCD cat B or C. One of the cat C designs appeals to me very strongly, but I have a reservation about buying one, as I would like to do the odd cross channel trip to France. .......?

Perhaps it would be helpful to understand what makes the boat 'Cat C'?
Does it lack stability?
Or is it just lightly equipped? Which you can change.

Can you get info on the RYA SSS numbers or STIX for both boats?

Crossing to France is not a big deal, but it is always nice to know that the boat is capable of handling the weather. I think that's going to the case in your home area too.

Have you sailed both boats?
The characteristics that make it 'Cat c' might mean it rolls more and is not so nice to sail in a good breeze as a 'cat b' boat. Or maybe not.

I suspect that in future it may become an issue that it will be frowned upon to take a boat outside its design envelope. Isn't this the case in NZ? Especially when you are taking responsibility for other people.

 

[Tranona]

Currently building to RCD category C.

My interpretation, and the advice I have been given, is that RCD's strongest recommendation is due to conditions of wind and sea, not necessarily distance offshore.

You have hit the right note here in explaining the purpose of the RCD categories. The additional explanation that uses locations, and the labels used to describe the categories serve to confuse rather than explain.

You could do a complete Atlantic crossing and never meet conditions worse than those envisaged in Cat C. Equally you can meet conditions of say a F4 SW over a spring ebb tide off St Albans Head within 200m of the shore that would challenge even a Cat A boat.

Following the same line of thinking, the operational limits used by many European countries to control use of boats are not logical as they are solely based on distance from shore. This has the obvious advantage of being in principle easy to police - just draw a line 6 miles (or whatever - varies from country to country) from the shore. Difficult to police in reality, and largely ignored as anybody who has seen Italian boats in Croatia and Greece in the summer will know.

Seemingly insurance companies are more pragmatic and base their decisions on the hard facts of claims records. They may well be reluctant to offer cover for small boats undertaking long distance voyages, or in known high risk areas such as the Bay of Biscay, but see no need to limit cover on boats used in the English Channel.

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps it would be helpful to understand what makes the boat 'Cat C'?
Does it lack stability?
Or is it just lightly equipped? Which you can change.

Can you get info on the RYA SSS numbers or STIX for both boats?

Crossing to France is not a big deal, but it is always nice to know that the boat is capable of handling the weather. I think that's going to the case in your home area too.

Have you sailed both boats?
The characteristics that make it 'Cat c' might mean it rolls more and is not so nice to sail in a good breeze as a 'cat b' boat. Or maybe not.

I suspect that in future it may become an issue that it will be frowned upon to take a boat outside its design envelope. Isn't this the case in NZ? Especially when you are taking responsibility for other people.

There are two different issues here. First is the use of design categories (and the underlying principles of the differences between them) in choosing your boat for the purpose you intend. That is partly what the RCD is about in providing information to help buyers decision making. The descriptive material attached to the categories helps position the boat in the market place. However the categories are over simplified, particularly A as it covers boats with a much wider range of capability than that conveyed by the description. Positioning in a category can also be determined by one particular feature - for example the Nauticat 331 is in Cat B, even though it exceeds Category A in all the major design criteria - but it has doors on the wheelhouse side rather than on the aft bulkhead.

The second issue, which is what the OP raised is whether there are any penalties for using boats in what might seem to be situations that do not fit in with the design categories. That would be impossible to enforce. It is easy to cross to France in conditions that would fit Cat D in terms of the two main criteria (wind force and wave height), but return in conditions that would demand Cat A! In other words any restrictive legislation on geographic use based on categories would be a nonsense and unenforceable.

As for your last point, if a boat is used commercially - ie taking paying passengers for financial gain, they have to meet a different set of criteria which is much more detailed and wide ranging than the RCD categories.

 

[lw395]

.....
‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

.....

I don't categorise crossing Lyme Bay as offshore sailing, so how can a shorter crossing to France be? Head up to KEnt and you won't be more than about 11 miles offshore at any point, and that is certainly closer than in the middle of Lyme...

.....

J

I do not generally go out seeking strong weather, but I've certainly seen F7 and waves bigger than 2m, crossing Lyme Bay.
I've crossed Lyme Bay in a 23ft boat and would do so again. What would the category of a Hunter Duette be anyway?
People have crossed oceans in all sorts of unsuitable boats, I admire them for it, but I wouldn't advise people to do it.
It's easy to say you can plan never to meet a Force 6 on a channel crossing, but it's easy to be in Cherbourg or Braye for several days getting forecasts of '4/5 occassionally 6', and we all know that that occassional 6 might have short squalls in it that are stronger.

Another thing to consider is how well a boat will go upwind in poor weather. If your inshore rated boat heels over a lot and makes a lot of leeway, its going to be a longer more testing sail than in a better offshore boat.

The above is just as true on a wet day off Gurnard as half way across the channel.
I do know people who have sunk boats in foul weather, all of them racing in the Solent.
There is something to be said for a boat well capable of what you want to do, with seaworthiness to spare.

The other issue is that your cat c boat might be actually fine offshore, but the maker chose not to pursue the paperwork for a higher rating if it was not worth it for his market.

 

[JesseLoynes]

So to round up and give the OP a short answer:

Not sure about the international stuff, probably depends on how they feel on the day.

And for boat choice, depends which boat, in which conditions, and what you want it for.

Glad we could all be of help!

 

[ReggieK]

In what way? Would be interested to hear of any insurance company that would impose restrictions based solely on the RCD category of the boat.

My insurance specifically states "Inland and coastal waters only"

 

[ostell]

My insurance specifically states "Inland and coastal waters only"

But then you haven't paid for anything more

 

[Boomshanka]

I had an Etap 21i that I brought new, part of the options I spec'd was a Cat B upgrade (the boat is RCD 'C' as standard)... the *only* difference was a piece of 1/2" board, about 4" high that had to be bolted in place across the bottom of the companion way (and then a smaller lower washboard to make up the difference)... and that was it (apart from a 'B' stamped on the RCD aluminium plate). It never got used as it tended to trip the kids up when they were going below!

Don't forget that Clarkson et al have crossed in a pickup