RCD and all that…

[benjenbav]

With apologies, this is old stuff posted across several threads. But it’s beyond me to find it now…

Background: I’m a UK citizen, UK resident and (at least for the purpose of this thread) plan to use the boat exclusively in UK waters.

If I were to buy a boat in an EU country (that was there also on the relevant date), bring it back to UK and use it as described above (don’t want to muddy these waters by a discussion of TA rules, please) I’m confident that I would be liable to pay VAT/equivalent @ 20% (of the boat’s current value).

Leaving that to one side, I think I would also be obliged to consider RCD/UKCA compliance.

If it’s, say, a 2015 boat that has a CE certificate, does this just get rubber stamped inasmuch as I would apply for and get a piece of paper confirming compliance or maybe wouldn’t even need to apply? Or would the boat be subject to reinspection by a certification agency that may or may not exist/have resource to deal with importation of pleasure craft?

If it’s a 1973 boat to which CE certification has never applied what happens? Is it grandfathered into the UK system? Is it marked as too old to require compliance? Does it require inspection to be certified as compliant with rules that were written 50 years after the boat was built?

I hope there are simple answers to these questions. But please could we try to avoid the observation that no-one in authority is going to know or care about one little old pleasure boat more or less.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Moonbeam]

Good article here, from Aug 2023, which I think is still the current (muddled) situation What the indefinite delay of the UKCA mark means for boat buying and selling - Practical Boat Owner

 

[benjenbav]

Good article here, from Aug 2023, which I think is still the current (muddled) situation What the indefinite delay of the UKCA mark means for boat buying and selling - Practical Boat Owner

Thanks. I guess the easy takeaway is to set the search filter on brokerage sites to “UK only” and stop dreaming about finding a neglected gem in a forgotten foreign backwater.

 

[Tranona]

As the article linked in post#2 suggests there is no simple answer. Rather tedious, but this New boat and buyer advice, particularly towards the end when Baggywrinkle digs out the relevant law and guidance covers the subject.

To summarise

Private imports of boats into the UK require certification
Certification must be current at the time of import (first put into service)
Certification must be undertaken by a UK body
Current standards are the same as the 2017 RCD
Boats that are not certified to the 2017 RCD are subject to a PCA against the standards

What is unclear (as discussed in the article) is whether the last point will be enforced for boats that are certified to the earlier (1997 and 2013) versions of the RCD. This is critical as although these were standards accepted in the UK when it was in the EU, few earlier boats will meet the 2017 without extensive modifications, particularly pre 2013 which will not have EU certified engines (unless re-engined). There is no consideration given to pre 1997 EEA built boats which previously had been exempt.

There does not seem to be any clarification forthcoming from Trading Standards, nor any "case law" that shows how the rules are being enforced.

 

[benjenbav]

As the article linked in post#2 suggests there is no simple answer. Rather tedious, but this New boat and buyer advice, particularly towards the end when Baggywrinkle digs out the relevant law and guidance covers the subject.

To summarise

Private imports of boats into the UK require certification
Certification must be current at the time of import (first put into service)
Certification must be undertaken by a UK body
Current standards are the same as the 2017 RCD
Boats that are not certified to the 2017 RCD are subject to a PCA against the standards

What is unclear (as discussed in the article) is whether the last point will be enforced for boats that are certified to the earlier (1997 and 2013) versions of the RCD. This is critical as although these were standards accepted in the UK when it was in the EU, few earlier boats will meet the 2017 without extensive modifications, particularly pre 2013 which will not have EU certified engines (unless re-engined). There is no consideration given to pre 1997 EEA built boats which previously had been exempt.

There does not seem to be any clarification forthcoming from Trading Standards, nor any "case law" that shows how the rules are being enforced.

Thank you. It’s a bit of a pickle as regards (a) items that last a long time (b) have a significant used-goods market and (c) are designed to be capable of moving about across oceans.

To think that, say, an early Sparkman and Stephens design that has been meticulously maintained and proved its fitness for purpose by sailing across seven oceans over half a century of continuous use and is most certainly not built to 2017 regulations could only lawfully be imported to UK by virtue of an official blind eye being turned to it is quite a failure of bureaucracy.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you. It’s a bit of a pickle as regards (a) items that last a long time (b) have a significant used-goods market and (c) are designed to be capable of moving about across oceans.

To think that, say, an early Sparkman and Stephens design that has been meticulously maintained and proved its fitness for purpose by sailing across seven oceans over half a century of continuous use and is most certainly not built to 2017 regulations could only lawfully be imported to UK by virtue of an official blind eye being turned to it is quite a failure of bureaucracy.

It has been the same since 1992/7 when we became part of the EU single market and the subsequent adoption of protectionist regulations. The RCD was essentially to do with trade - creating common standards across the EU, rather than safety. The standards did of course codify good practice and establish a basis for categorising different types of usage with appropriate design and equipment requirements. This helps consumer choice.

The failure in the current situation is just an example of the general failure of Brexit, or rather the failure of our masters, both elected and non elected to make full use of our freedom from the EU. Hardly surprising as they have spent their whole careers regulating us (and in many ways being the cheerleaders of regulation - the RCD was essentially a British construct) and not only know no different but aren't about to give up their power and reason for being.

 

[benjenbav]

It has been the same since 1992/7 when we became part of the EU single market and the subsequent adoption of protectionist regulations. The RCD was essentially to do with trade - creating common standards across the EU, rather than safety. The standards did of course codify good practice and establish a basis for categorising different types of usage with appropriate design and equipment requirements. This helps consumer choice.

The failure in the current situation is just an example of the general failure of Brexit, or rather the failure of our masters, both elected and non elected to make full use of our freedom from the EU. Hardly surprising as they have spent their whole careers regulating us (and in many ways being the cheerleaders of regulation - the RCD was essentially a British construct) and not only know no different but aren't about to give up their power and reason for being.

Your first paragraph highlights the whimsicality of the concept of free trade within protected borders.

Your second, I think, touches on a thread that runs rather deeper than events of the last 10 years. In England (maybe less so other countries within the UK) we have historically - at least, for the last several hundred years - shown a resistance to codification. We have no written constitution. Our laws have been shaped as much by case law and by convention as by statute. As such, perhaps the current position on importing pre-CE boats will have to be determined by a test case. It’s the English way. Perhaps…

 

[B27]

There are interesting parallels, and differences, with the trade in importing old cars and motorbikes.

My limited understanding is that you can't import a recent model without it conforming to emissions regs etc, but older classics are much less of a problem.

I believe that certain boats get imported but must have new engines to meet emission regs, but the old engines get sold on the UK used market?

The flip side of the question involves what limits we want to importing less-safe things that pollute.

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps - I would like to think so, but your earlier observation is probably nearer the mark. Who cares? One would like to think that our consumer bodies would take it on but helping the odd middle aged man indulge his penchant for an old boat is not high on the agenda if at all.

 

[Tranona]

There are interesting parallels, and differences, with the trade in importing old cars and motorbikes.

My limited understanding is that you can't import a recent model without it conforming to emissions regs etc, but older classics are much less of a problem.

I believe that certain boats get imported but must have new engines to meet emission regs, but the old engines get sold on the UK used market?

The flip side of the question involves what limits we want to importing less-safe things that pollute.

Those issues really don't come into it. Just box ticking. Cars are different because of the volume and the organised bodies who lobby to get more friendly regulations. Even then there are loads of anomalies - for example my grandson is building a Cobra from a kit. He has bough a complete Ford V8 from the US with EU certification so that the car can be registered as new. If he used an engine already in use in the UK it would get a Q plate!

 

[benjenbav]

There are interesting parallels, and differences, with the trade in importing old cars and motorbikes.

My limited understanding is that you can't import a recent model without it conforming to emissions regs etc, but older classics are much less of a problem.

I believe that certain boats get imported but must have new engines to meet emission regs, but the old engines get sold on the UK used market?

The flip side of the question involves what limits we want to importing less-safe things that pollute.

Indeed. A few years ago I was trying to import an old car to Canada where I then had a house. As I recall it was just on the wrong side of the time line and would’ve needed to meet all sorts of type-compliance regulations that it would have been exempt from had it been a year or two older.

The reasoning behind this was that there were vanishingly few old cars going to be imported and what few there’d be were mostly collectors’ cars that would do a tiny mileage. Hence, nothing to worry about and it was easier to allow these in without regulation.

Would be good to have similar thinking applied to old boats.

 

[benjenbav]

Perhaps - I would like to think so, but your earlier observation is probably nearer the mark. Who cares? One would like to think that our consumer bodies would take it on but helping the odd middle aged man indulge his penchant for an old boat is not high on the agenda if at all.

I think I should be flattered to qualify as an odd, middle-aged man.

 

[nevis768]

With apologies, this is old stuff posted across several threads. But it’s beyond me to find it now…

Background: I’m a UK citizen, UK resident and (at least for the purpose of this thread) plan to use the boat exclusively in UK waters.

If I were to buy a boat in an EU country (that was there also on the relevant date), bring it back to UK and use it as described above (don’t want to muddy these waters by a discussion of TA rules, please) I’m confident that I would be liable to pay VAT/equivalent @ 20% (of the boat’s current value).

Leaving that to one side, I think I would also be obliged to consider RCD/UKCA compliance.

If it’s, say, a 2015 boat that has a CE certificate, does this just get rubber stamped inasmuch as I would apply for and get a piece of paper confirming compliance or maybe wouldn’t even need to apply? Or would the boat be subject to reinspection by a certification agency that may or may not exist/have resource to deal with importation of pleasure craft?

If it’s a 1973 boat to which CE certification has never applied what happens? Is it grandfathered into the UK system? Is it marked as too old to require compliance? Does it require inspection to be certified as compliant with rules that were written 50 years after the boat was built?

I hope there are simple answers to these questions. But please could we try to avoid the observation that no-one in authority is going to know or care about one little old pleasure boat more or less.

Thanks in advance.

There is another thread which goes through this, but the legislation doesn't apply to private buyers. Trading standards are the enforcement authority, and they deal with Manufacturers and importers putting boats onto the market for the first time. In any case the whole requirement for even manufacturers/importers has been suspended until Dec 2024.

 

[Tranona]

There is another thread which goes through this, but the legislation doesn't apply to private buyers. Trading standards are the enforcement authority, and they deal with Manufacturers and importers putting boats onto the market for the first time. In any case the whole requirement for even manufacturers/importers has been suspended until Dec 2024.

Why do you persist in posting this nonsense? You may not be aware, but the person you are responding to is a lawyer so is perfectly capable of identifying the law that governs imports of boats into the Uk. Indeed he could look at the government guidance on the subject and quickly find that what you say is simply untrue.

The other thread died because it is pointless continuing when you just ignore anything that is true.

 

[nevis768]

Tranona disables the quote function on threads about RCD ,so here is what he said,
"Why do you persist in posting this nonsense? You may not be aware, but the person you are responding to is a lawyer so is perfectly capable of identifying the law that governs imports of boats into the Uk. Indeed he could look at the government guidance on the subject and quickly find that what you say is simply untrue.
The other thread died because it is pointless continuing when you just ignore anything that is true."


So , essentially you made a fool of yourself on the last thread by insisting that the RCD 2017 wasn't an Act or legislation at your post number 81.
Now a lawyer posting on this subject, who you just happen to know, ---yeah right!
And a lawyer asking for legal advice and you very conveniently supply the same old baloney from the last thread.

What sort of lawyer asks for advice about legislation, do you really think anybody is going to believe that?

I see in your advice in this thread you forget to mention none of it applies to private individuals, and more importantly none of it applies to anybody because it has been delayed any until Dec 2024
Here is the relevant piece from the legislation showing the Dec 2024 date.
Do you not think that was an important bit of information to pass onto your lawyer friend?

9. Conformity assessment and marking – products placed on the GB market before 11pm 31 December 2024​

If you place an individual fully manufactured product on the EEA or the UK market (either in Northern Ireland or Great Britain) before 11pm 31 December 2024, you do not need to do anything new. These individual goods can continue to circulate on either market until they reach their end user and do not need to comply with the changes that take effect from 11pm 31 December 2024.

A fully manufactured good is ‘placed on the market’ when there is a written or verbal agreement (or offer of an agreement) to transfer ownership or possession or other rights in the product. This does not require physical transfer of the good.

You can usually provide proof of placing on the market on the basis of any relevant document ordinarily used in business transactions, including:

• contracts of sale concerning goods which have already been manufactured and meet the legal requirements
• invoices
• documents concerning the shipping of goods for distribution

The relevant economic operator (whether manufacturer, importer or distributor) bears the burden of proof for demonstrating that the good was placed on the EEA or UK market before 11pm 31 December 2024.

It appears that all of this is irrelevant anyway until 31/12/24

But when it is relevant all a private importer has to do is to ensure his boat complied with the relevant conformity procedure when it was first available to the UK market, eg CE marking. I don't think anybody is going to ask for a RCD compliance certificate for a 2012 boat when that didn't exist at the time of manufacture. So, it is the CE marking we are talking about. I think that would apply to all EU boats, so you don't have to do anything. Interesting to see the enforcement authority is Trading Standards, I've yet to see them in a marina asking for RCD compliance paperwork

What powers would they use? Ones you have invented? Why are there no cases of this ever happening?

I can tell you why, because I think it's a load of baloney invented by people with connections to those wishing to put people off buying boats abroad or else wishing to further completely unnecessary boat compliance checks. I'm still waiting to be shown an example of 1 private individual prosecuted by Trading Standards for buying a secondhand boat in Europe and bringing it here for his own use. Bring it on!!!

 

[Tranona]

But when it is relevant all a private importer has to do is to ensure his boat complied with the relevant conformity procedure when it was first available to the UK market, eg CE marking. I don't think anybody is going to ask for a RCD compliance certificate for a 2012 boat when that didn't exist at the time of manufacture. So, it is the CE marking we are talking about. I think that would apply to all EU boats, so you don't have to do anything. Interesting to see the enforcement authority is Trading Standards, I've yet to see them in a marina asking for RCD compliance paperwork

This is your fundamental misunderstanding. If the boat has been in service previously in the UK then it does not need recertification. This applies for example for boats re-entering under RGR which by definition originated in the UK. However a boat that has never been in the UK needs certification, irrespective of whether it has a CE mark and needs to meet the latest standard. Post 2017 CE marks with support of the appropriate paperwork are acceptable because it is the same as the current UK standard. Pre 2017 are not. That is the law.

I have no idea why you think that all EU CE marked boats are exempt when the law clearly states that it is INDIVUDUAL boats that require certification on import.

I am also not sure why you keep banging on about vested interests. None of the interested parties, mainly brokers/dealers and the one certifying body likes the rules for 2 reasons First it is a restriction on trade and second the arbitrary and uncertain way it seems to be applied makes life difficult for them. The end result is that importing of used boats from the EU has essentially stopped - although the generally higher price of comparable boats in the EU is probably a bigger constraint.

BTW if you read carefully the OP here was more interested in buying a type of boat more common in the US.

 

[benjenbav]

Tranona disables the quote function on threads about RCD ,so here is what he said,
"Why do you persist in posting this nonsense? You may not be aware, but the person you are responding to is a lawyer so is perfectly capable of identifying the law that governs imports of boats into the Uk. Indeed he could look at the government guidance on the subject and quickly find that what you say is simply untrue.
The other thread died because it is pointless continuing when you just ignore anything that is true."


So , essentially you made a fool of yourself on the last thread by insisting that the RCD 2017 wasn't an Act or legislation at your post number 81.
Now a lawyer posting on this subject, who you just happen to know, ---yeah right!
And a lawyer asking for legal advice and you very conveniently supply the same old baloney from the last thread.

What sort of lawyer asks for advice about legislation, do you really think anybody is going to believe that?

I see in your advice in this thread you forget to mention none of it applies to private individuals, and more importantly none of it applies to anybody because it has been delayed any until Dec 2024
Here is the relevant piece from the legislation showing the Dec 2024 date.
Do you not think that was an important bit of information to pass onto your lawyer friend?

9. Conformity assessment and marking – products placed on the GB market before 11pm 31 December 2024​

If you place an individual fully manufactured product on the EEA or the UK market (either in Northern Ireland or Great Britain) before 11pm 31 December 2024, you do not need to do anything new. These individual goods can continue to circulate on either market until they reach their end user and do not need to comply with the changes that take effect from 11pm 31 December 2024.

A fully manufactured good is ‘placed on the market’ when there is a written or verbal agreement (or offer of an agreement) to transfer ownership or possession or other rights in the product. This does not require physical transfer of the good.

You can usually provide proof of placing on the market on the basis of any relevant document ordinarily used in business transactions, including:

• contracts of sale concerning goods which have already been manufactured and meet the legal requirements
• invoices
• documents concerning the shipping of goods for distribution

The relevant economic operator (whether manufacturer, importer or distributor) bears the burden of proof for demonstrating that the good was placed on the EEA or UK market before 11pm 31 December 2024.

It appears that all of this is irrelevant anyway until 31/12/24

But when it is relevant all a private importer has to do is to ensure his boat complied with the relevant conformity procedure when it was first available to the UK market, eg CE marking. I don't think anybody is going to ask for a RCD compliance certificate for a 2012 boat when that didn't exist at the time of manufacture. So, it is the CE marking we are talking about. I think that would apply to all EU boats, so you don't have to do anything. Interesting to see the enforcement authority is Trading Standards, I've yet to see them in a marina asking for RCD compliance paperwork

What powers would they use? Ones you have invented? Why are there no cases of this ever happening?

I can tell you why, because I think it's a load of baloney invented by people with connections to those wishing to put people off buying boats abroad or else wishing to further completely unnecessary boat compliance checks. I'm still waiting to be shown an example of 1 private individual prosecuted by Trading Standards for buying a secondhand boat in Europe and bringing it here for his own use. Bring it on!!!

May I say how grateful I am to everyone who has taken the time to offer their thoughts and point to where further reading might pay dividends.

I have now read enough to have formed the opinion that my bringing into the UK what some might call a classic yacht (others might just say ‘old’) that had never previously been in the UK would likely be fraught with compliance difficulties.

For what it’s worth I was a practising lawyer for many years. I am now retired.

My area of specialisation was far removed from the realm of trade regulations. Yes, I can read legislation but a pointer as to where to start in a foreign subject is invaluable.

Plus, as mentioned, I’m retired and surprisingly unenthusiastic about putting in a shift at the legal coalface.

I have no connections with either the marine or compliance industries, beyond occasionally spending money with the former and, back in the day, regularly spending money on the latter.

I don’t actually know Tranona beyond having read his posts over much of the 20-odd years I’ve been posting on here and once or twice swapping private messages with him on various topics. I have, though, formed a high opinion of his wisdom and willingness to share his knowledge on a range of matters that are relevant to boats and boat buying.

 

[nevis768]

May I say how grateful I am to everyone who has taken the time to offer their thoughts and point to where further reading might pay dividends.

I have now read enough to have formed the opinion that my bringing into the UK what some might call a classic yacht (others might just say ‘old’) that had never previously been in the UK would likely be fraught with compliance difficulties.

For what it’s worth I was a practising lawyer for many years. I am now retired.

My area of specialisation was far removed from the realm of trade regulations. Yes, I can read legislation but a pointer as to where to start in a foreign subject is invaluable.

Plus, as mentioned, I’m retired and surprisingly unenthusiastic about putting in a shift at the legal coalface.

I have no connections with either the marine or compliance industries, beyond occasionally spending money with the former and, back in the day, regularly spending money on the latter.

I don’t actually know Tranona beyond having read his posts over much of the 20-odd years I’ve been posting on here and once or twice swapping private messages with him on various topics. I have, though, formed a high opinion of his wisdom and willingness to share his knowledge on a range of matters that are relevant to boats and boat buying

Yeah - right, what a load of unevidenced baloney. I see you and Tranona were both up to the early hours 0330 in your case posting, do you both suffer from insomnia at the same time? Possibly you could point out which part of the Act, with reference to the Act and Section which refers to private individuals? I'm asking because the Act guidance refers to Manufacturers and Importers?
Also S9 of the Guidance has delayed any action until at least Dec 2024? I am sure a retired lawyer like yourself will be able to reference the Act and section which has convinced you?
(For what it's worth I worked in enforcement and therefore I read the Act guidance which defines the terms and definitions in the Act, and I also worked regularly with Trading Standards over 35 years)

 

[SaltIre]

Why do you persist in posting this nonsense? You may not be aware, but the person you are responding to is a lawyer so is perfectly capable of identifying the law that governs imports of boats into the Uk. Indeed he could look at the government guidance on the subject and quickly find that what you say is simply untrue.

The other thread died because it is pointless continuing when you just ignore anything that is true.

Tranona disables the quote function on threads about RCD ,so here is what he said,
"Why do you persist in posting this nonsense? You may not be aware, but the person you are responding to is a lawyer so is perfectly capable of identifying the law that governs imports of boats into the Uk. Indeed he could look at the government guidance on the subject and quickly find that what you say is simply untrue.
The other thread died because it is pointless continuing when you just ignore anything that is true."

I'm intrigued... In what way is the quote function disabled?