Raymarine network upgrade after SBS

[Nigelb]

I am looking to update my Raymarine network with a new; MFD, Radar and AIS. Majority is plug and play but I want to optimise the system as far as possible.

View attachment Svea Raymarine Network.pdf

1. If I use the wifi function on the new radar, I don't need the HS RayNet Switch, but is it robust?
2. Does the AIS 650 need a dedicated GPS?
3. Does the Seatalk Ng backbone and HS RayNet Switch need independent power?

Any improvements or comments welcome.

 

[pvb]

1. If I use the wifi function on the new radar, I don't need the HS RayNet Switch, but is it robust?

Only time and experience will tell. I'd hard-wire it to be certain.

2. Does the AIS 650 need a dedicated GPS?

Yes, but it's supplied as part of the AIS650 package.

3. Does the Seatalk Ng backbone and HS RayNet Switch need independent power?

I believe they do.

 

[dunedin]

I am looking to update my Raymarine network with a new; MFD, Radar and AIS. Majority is plug and play but I want to optimise the system as far as possible.

View attachment 80669

1. If I use the wifi function on the new radar, I don't need the HS RayNet Switch, but is it robust?
2. Does the AIS 650 need a dedicated GPS?
3. Does the Seatalk Ng backbone and HS RayNet Switch need independent power?

Any improvements or comments welcome.

1. Radar itself is wireless radio based (as is AIS and GPS) - so no reason why not to use wireless for sending the radar signal to the MFD. We have Quantum radar and works perfectly on Wi-fi. Only issue might be with very thick steels decks, but if worried read radar installation manual and check Wi-fi signal strength at mast before deciding (again we did this pre purchase, all fine)
2. Our AIS 650 did need a separate GPS unit - but this was supplied with the AIS 650 in the same box. Not sure if changed since we bought ours
3. The SeatslkNG does need one power input - but some devices provide this as standard (can’t remember offhand which devices can do this). Can’t see why need HS unless running dual plotters with single chart card?

 

[prv]

I don't understand the green lines over to the right. Presumably they represent ethernet, so how come you're connecting one to an N2k drop? Does the thing that looks like a black-and-white plug represent some kind of bridge device I haven't come across? What's that connection supposed to achieve?

If you just connect the radar to the plotter with an ethernet cable (with proprietary Raymarine plugs at the ends) then you don't need a switch at all. The devices will do auto-MDI-X. You will want to connect the plotter to the N2k bus, which is a separate link.

You seem to have too many devices connected to the left-hand ST1 adapter. Personally I like the idea of the VHF having its own GPS receiver (either built-in on some modern units, or a separate but dedicated NMEA0183 puck on the same power circuit) which would let you replace that ST1 adapter with a normal N2k manifold like the leftmost of the three.

Your plotter in the top-left doesn't seem to be connected to anything except power - or maybe it's meant to be getting instrument data via the right-hand plotter, and possibly radar direct from the scanner, over wifi? I *think* that works with current versions of Lighthouse but I'm not certain.

To answer your specific questions:

1) I don't know, as I was happier with a cable. However, wifi is Raymarine's recommended approach, and as a colleague of mine once said, "radio waves don't corrode".

2) Yes. All AIS transmitters do.

3) Each of them needs to be powered. I'm not sure what you mean by "independent". And as above, you don't appear to need the switch anyway.

Pete

 

[Pete7]

I don't understand the green lines over to the right.....

You seem to have too many devices connected to the left-hand ST1 adapter.

I agree with Pete. Why not start with trying to get everything on a Seatalk NG network (NMEA2000) and just have the ST60s linked to it with the Seatalk to STNg block.

Is the VHF Raymarine and does it have Seatalk NG? I have just added our Ray50 to the network so the CP supplies the GPS position. Works perfectly without needing an extra GPS supply.

If you are going to this length you might consider changing the auto pilot control box to the latest Evo version with a gyro compass which is plug and play on a Seatalk NG network and streets ahead of the older fluxgate APs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JicXTTg5xc&t=0s

 

[knuterikt]

With only one radar and one MFD you won’t need the HS RayNet Switch. You can connect the two units directly. I was advised to use cabled connection if possible by the local dealer.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It would be helpful to know the plotter and VHF models.

The STNg network needs to be powered.
The switch does not connect to STNg, as PRV said.

I would not use the wifi arrangement that you've drawn. If you fit the switch, you connect the radar and both plotters to the switch. Both plotters then share all of the data on the network and you only need a single chart card, in one of the plotters, designated as "master". However, if the plotter on the right was an Axiom Pro, you can do all of that without the switch, as the Pro has two network ports.

The VHF and GPS connections don't make sense. If the VHF has an STNg connection, fit it to a normal STNg connector and there is no need for the GPS. If it is Seatalk, connect it where it is and fit a STNg GPS to the left connector block.

Better yet, forget the Raymarine AIS and fit an Em-trak B100. This will cost much less than the Raymarine and works just as well. It has an NMEA2000 port, which will connect the same as the Raymarine in your drawing, by using an adapter cable (STNg is N2K with different plugs/cables). If the VHF has an STNg connection, connect it to the left connector block. If not, it should have NMEA0183, which will also connect to the Em-Trak via its own NMEA 0183 connection. Again, it would help to know the VHF model.

 

[Yngmar]

1. If I use the wifi function on the new radar, I don't need the HS RayNet Switch, but is it robust?

Wifi mostly works alright, but you can run into problems in densely populated areas where the spectrum is clogged up with tons of wifi networks. Out at sea it will mostly be reliable (unless jammed by someone or you have interference sources onboard).

Ours cut out for a while going up the river into Lisbon. In hindsight, this is unsurprising, considering the hundreds of wifi networks we could pick up with a scan from both sides of the river later.

So if you want reliable, use a cable. For us the effect was just the tablet losing NMEA data from the boat (including GPS), but we simply used the backup OpenCPN downstairs which had an Ethernet cable and was unaffected. And it was a clear day. Radar suddenly cutting out while going up a river in the fog/dark could be more stressful.

 

[prv]

It's also worth noting that there's nothing special about the switch electronics - it's just a 100mb ethernet switch with a gigabit uplink port. The packaging is good - it's weathertight, and the proprietary Raynet plugs are more robust than RJ45s - but if you're mounting it in a dry area you could substitute it with any 12v 100mb ethernet switch.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

It's also worth noting that there's nothing special about the switch electronics - it's just a 100mb ethernet switch with a gigabit uplink port. The packaging is good - it's weathertight, and the proprietary Raynet plugs are more robust than RJ45s - but if you're mounting it in a dry area you could substitute it with any 12v 100mb ethernet switch.

Pete

Good point Pete. Raymarine also make cables with a Raynet plug on one end and an RJ45 on the other. Or, you can cut the Raynet/Raynet cable that comes with some plotters in half and splice each half to half of a standard Cat5 cable.

 

[prv]

Or, you can cut the Raynet/Raynet cable that comes with some plotters in half and splice each half to half of a standard Cat5 cable.

I would not splice ethernet cable inline like that, rather I would (indeed, have, to accommodate lowering the mast) cut it and crimp on an RJ45 plug. The Raymarine "radar" cable is just standard ethernet cable with weatherproof proprietary plugs.

You can get a crimper and pack of RJ45s for under a tenner on eBay.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

I would not splice ethernet cable inline like that, rather I would (indeed, have, to accommodate lowering the mast) cut it and crimp on an RJ45 plug. The Raymarine "radar" cable is just standard ethernet cable with weatherproof proprietary plugs.

You can get a crimper and pack of RJ45s for under a tenner on eBay.

Pete

To utilise the switch you mentioned you would need to buy Raynet to RJ45 cables, @ about £90 each for 10m cables and £60 for a 1m cable. Some of the plotters come with a 1m Raynet to Raynet cable, this can be cut in half and with a 10m Cat5 cable, a pair of Raynet to RJ45 cables can be made up for next to nothing.

Properly spliced cables, that's soldered and heatshrink sealed, in pairs twisted back together work perfectly fine. I don't see where this can possibly any less reliable or functional that crimping RJ45s to the cable ends and using connectors. Certainly better than the strips of chocolate blocks i often find at the mast foot !.

This is PBO. If i'm carrying out an installation for a customer i fit all new cables, the savings are not to much if you're paying someone to do the splicing.

 

[Nigelb]

I don't understand the green lines over to the right. Presumably they represent ethernet, so how come you're connecting one to an N2k drop? Does the thing that looks like a black-and-white plug represent some kind of bridge device I haven't come across? What's that connection supposed to achieve?

If you just connect the radar to the plotter with an ethernet cable (with proprietary Raymarine plugs at the ends) then you don't need a switch at all. The devices will do auto-MDI-X. You will want to connect the plotter to the N2k bus, which is a separate link.

You seem to have too many devices connected to the left-hand ST1 adapter. Personally I like the idea of the VHF having its own GPS receiver (either built-in on some modern units, or a separate but dedicated NMEA0183 puck on the same power circuit) which would let you replace that ST1 adapter with a normal N2k manifold like the leftmost of the three.

Your plotter in the top-left doesn't seem to be connected to anything except power - or maybe it's meant to be getting instrument data via the right-hand plotter, and possibly radar direct from the scanner, over wifi? I *think* that works with current versions of Lighthouse but I'm not certain.

To answer your specific questions:

1) I don't know, as I was happier with a cable. However, wifi is Raymarine's recommended approach, and as a colleague of mine once said, "radio waves don't corrode".

2) Yes. All AIS transmitters do.

3) Each of them needs to be powered. I'm not sure what you mean by "independent". And as above, you don't appear to need the switch anyway.

Pete

Thanks Pete,

The green lines to the left were indicating the Raynet cables as opposed to Seatalk or Seatalk NG.

The little black and white plug is a STNG (M) to Devicenet (F) Adapter, as the new MFD E70535 has no dedicated Seatalk NG socket. It uses a integrated power and NMEA 2000 socket with a Raynet (M) plug.

I agree with your comment on the HS switch, it adds nothing to the network but additional complexity. I had assumed that the AIS650 would require a Raynet connection to the plotter and was happy that I was ‘future proofing’ the system by adding the switch. Given that the AIS unit has a Seatalk NG socket, no requirement.

Interesting on the loading aspects of the Seatalk backbone, I did read somewhere on the Raymarine site that it should be balanced but I had interpreted this as being around the Power socket. At the moment the RHS bridge is in the cockpit (external) behind the instruments. The middle one is behind the electrical panel and the LH would be new at the chart table. I can move the GPS and the AIS connection points but I believe you are suggesting putting all the legacy Seatalk sensors onto one spur.

The plotter top left is a dedicated iPad running the Raymarine APP mounted at the chart table. My understanding is that this is connected directly by WiFi to the new Element MFD. Not sure how good this will be but it would be nice to be able to view the Plotter or Radar image from the chart table.

So going to remove switch and have a look at the legacy Seatalk connections.

Thanks Nigel.

 

[Nigelb]

I agree with Pete. Why not start with trying to get everything on a Seatalk NG network (NMEA2000) and just have the ST60s linked to it with the Seatalk to STNg block.

Is the VHF Raymarine and does it have Seatalk NG? I have just added our Ray50 to the network so the CP supplies the GPS position. Works perfectly without needing an extra GPS supply.

If you are going to this length you might consider changing the auto pilot control box to the latest Evo version with a gyro compass which is plug and play on a Seatalk NG network and streets ahead of the older fluxgate APs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JicXTTg5xc&t=0s

The VHF is a ICOM Unit mounted in the cockpit, it has DSC functions but no Seatalk connection, for GPS position.

Interesting point on the Autohelm, i assume the modern units are much more sensitive and would use less power. Our unit is very reliable and is responsive enough for downwind sailing. I really need it to fail to justify the upgrade!

Regards Nigel.

 

[prv]

To utilise the switch you mentioned you would need to buy Raynet to RJ45 cables, @ about £90 each for 10m cables and £60 for a 1m cable. Some of the plotters come with a 1m Raynet to Raynet cable, this can be cut in half and with a 10m Cat5 cable, a pair of Raynet to RJ45 cables can be made up for next to nothing.

Ah, I see, we were talking at slightly cross purposes.

I was assuming there was already a "Raynet" cable in place, which just needed to be connected to a generic industrial ethernet switch instead of the Raymarine one. I thought you were suggesting splicing on a short length of ethernet cable already fitted with a plug, just as a means of getting from Raynet to RJ45. In that situation, I'd fit an RJ45 directly to the Raymarine cable as a neater solution, and I imagine you would too.

I see now you're suggesting a situation where the bulk of the cable is generic (but hopefully good-quality outdoor-rated, rather than office-grade), to save buying the expensive Raymarine long cable. Makes sense as a PBO approach.

Personally I went with the Raymarine cable (it didn't cost that much as a bundle with the radar) and am happy not to have any splices exposed to the weather up the mast, though I'm sure that could be done securely. I looped the cable through the place where a switch would go if I ever needed one - in that case I'd cut it and fit plugs, but for now it's just an unbroken loop. At the foot of the mast I have a CablePort so I can pass cables with plugs through the deck; I did cut the cable in the space above the headlining, fitted RJ45s to both ends, and joined them in an IP68-rated coupler.

Pete

 

[prv]

The little black and white plug is a STNG (M) to Devicenet (F) Adapter,

In that case, why do you show ethernet cables going into it?

Interesting on the loading aspects of the Seatalk backbone, I did read somewhere on the Raymarine site that it should be balanced but I had interpreted this as being around the Power socket.

Presumably this is a reference to me saying you had "too many connections"? That's nothing to do with "loading" or "balance" but the simple fact that you show six cables plugged into a device that only has five sockets.

The plotter top left is a dedicated iPad running the Raymarine APP mounted at the chart table. My understanding is that this is connected directly by WiFi to the new Element MFD. Not sure how good this will be but it would be nice to be able to view the Plotter or Radar image from the chart table.

I'm not familiar with the Element plotters, but assuming it's essentially a cut-down Axiom then yes, this should work.

Pete

 

[prv]

The VHF is a ICOM Unit mounted in the cockpit, it has DSC functions but no Seatalk connection, for GPS position.

Since yellow represents SeaTalk1, I think your use of that colour also for the NMEA0183 connection to the VHF has confused people. Not to mention using an image of a Raymarine VHF that might plausibly have SeaTalk connections, even though you actually have a conventional Icom radio.

Why don't you make an updated drawing with some of what you've learned? Put it in a new post, though, not replacing the existing one, or the thread will get very confusing.

Interesting point on the Autohelm, i assume the modern units are much more sensitive and would use less power.

The steering is better, but I doubt the power usage is any different. Maybe less in standby, but when operating most of the power goes to moving the rudder, and that will take the same amount of energy regardless of the control system. The drive mechanism itself is unchanged.

Pete

 

[Nigelb]

Thanks,

The new plotter is a Element E70536, the other screen on the LHS is a dedicated iPad at the chart table running RayView App or RayControl, so only one plotter on the network and a slave screen.

The VHF is ICOM IC-M421 and needs a Seatalk connection, you are right that the GPS cannot go in this position, will move to the LH block.

I have not come across the EM-track B100 units, didn’t see them at the show and they are £150 cheaper than the Raymarine unit. Which is a bit of a blow given it would work perfectly well with the new Element MFD and looks like a nice compact well designed product.

Will update scheme, thanks.

 

[prv]

The VHF is ICOM IC-M421 and needs a Seatalk connection

This is categorically incorrect. Seatalk is a proprietary Raymarine protocol and, with the exception of a few low-volume semi-hobbyist products flying under Raymarine's intellectual-property radar, no other manufacturers support it. Your Icom radio certainly does not.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

Ah, I see, we were talking at slightly cross purposes.

I was assuming there was already a "Raynet" cable in place, which just needed to be connected to a generic industrial ethernet switch instead of the Raymarine one. I thought you were suggesting splicing on a short length of ethernet cable already fitted with a plug, just as a means of getting from Raynet to RJ45. In that situation, I'd fit an RJ45 directly to the Raymarine cable as a neater solution, and I imagine you would too.

I see now you're suggesting a situation where the bulk of the cable is generic (but hopefully good-quality outdoor-rated, rather than office-grade), to save buying the expensive Raymarine long cable. Makes sense as a PBO approach.

Personally I went with the Raymarine cable (it didn't cost that much as a bundle with the radar) and am happy not to have any splices exposed to the weather up the mast, though I'm sure that could be done securely. I looped the cable through the place where a switch would go if I ever needed one - in that case I'd cut it and fit plugs, but for now it's just an unbroken loop. At the foot of the mast I have a CablePort so I can pass cables with plugs through the deck; I did cut the cable in the space above the headlining, fitted RJ45s to both ends, and joined them in an IP68-rated coupler.

Pete

I was thinking that the radar came with the usual Raymarine Cat5/RJ45 cable and that both "plotters" were actually plotters. In which case the generic hub/switch could be used and the radar cable would readily fit to that without any splicing (i'd never splice the cable anywhere externally). Then, if one of the plotters came with a short Raynet cable, it could be utilised to connect the two plotters to the switch, all in true PBO style

Now we know a little more about the real equipment, that's all irrelevant.

I agree with your suggestion for a new, revised, thread. It would be very useful to correctly identify each piece of equipment and to also state whether said equipment has already been purchased, no point suggesting alternatives if Nigel has already made the purchases.