cod
Active Member
Visibility 50m. Under power. Contact on radar steady on starboard beam and closing.
What action would you take?
MINESAPINT.
What action would you take?
MINESAPINT.
RADAR
- Thread starter cod
- Start date
tome
Well-Known Member
Immediate turn to stbd to pass red-red unless I had enough power in reserve.
dralex
Well-Known Member
Fog or no fog, you're the give way vessel. How far away is the contact?
BTW, I hate questions like this because I' m always worried I'm missing the point.
BTW, I hate questions like this because I' m always worried I'm missing the point.
tcm
...
i'd have turned thru more than 90 degrees to stbd a while ago, pref before within 2 miles. If i hadn't, i'd stop to see if that showed him passing ahead. If he's "right there" you have to turn to port but that shows either you of tother boat shd have done something else earlier.
In an extreme case when something closed arg REALLY QUICKLY from stbd i froze it seemed to be coming as fast as a torpedo! - and the crew laughed as a french fighter jet or lowflying summink whacked overhead, unseen - it had already happened 3 times in the past hour when i was asleep. jeez!
In an extreme case when something closed arg REALLY QUICKLY from stbd i froze it seemed to be coming as fast as a torpedo! - and the crew laughed as a french fighter jet or lowflying summink whacked overhead, unseen - it had already happened 3 times in the past hour when i was asleep. jeez!
duncan
Well-Known Member
and the reason behind the question is...?
I would have thought that this is one where radar is only a substitute for visual contact and that you would take the same actions, possibly earlier and in a more defined manner, as if you could see the contact?
I would have thought that this is one where radar is only a substitute for visual contact and that you would take the same actions, possibly earlier and in a more defined manner, as if you could see the contact?
alex_rogers
Well-Known Member
I read an interesting discussion in the Cruising Association magazine that tried to pick apart how the crew of the yacht that was run down in the channel had managed to confuse themselves and use their radar to manouver themselves into the path of the other vessel. The suggestion was that the radar image was orientated to the heading of the yacht and that when they stopped to assess the situation, the yacht's bow blew off down wind and obviously changed the orientation of the radar image. The reflection they had been tracking on the screen (an had become familiar with) now looked like it was going to pass behind them. However, they hadn't appreciated the fact that the image had rotated and the other vessel was now approaching them from astern.
Interesting reading and quite a good reminder that interpreting the radar can be quite tricky, especially when under pressure or tired.
Interesting reading and quite a good reminder that interpreting the radar can be quite tricky, especially when under pressure or tired.
tcm
...
dunno, not my question.
I'd hope that i'd make the same decisions with zero or 100% viz - cos the radar can see things before eyes can...
I'd hope that i'd make the same decisions with zero or 100% viz - cos the radar can see things before eyes can...
tcm
...
missing the point
i know what you mean - unfortunately, whilst asking your question and waiting for a response i expect the other boat has crashed into you, the point being .....he didn't have radar
Maybe...
i know what you mean - unfortunately, whilst asking your question and waiting for a response i expect the other boat has crashed into you, the point being .....he didn't have radar
Maybe...
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
What distance to contact? Where on the beam, just ahead of midships or behind, any other contacts, not enough information to make a decision at the present time.
rhinorhino
Well-Known Member
Wrong, Read the regs...
duncan
Well-Known Member
care to clarify so that others can benefit whilst I go of and do my homework..........
duncan
Well-Known Member
care to clarify so that others can benefit whilst I go off and do my homework..........
if you are suggesting that the turn should be made to starboard I don't think that matters for a yacht under power - the turn will look the smae on radar to the other ship and is pretty instantanious relative to a large powered vessel; unless of course you have screwed up and are already right next to the other vessel as tcm says in which case full power and about a 145 degree turn to port to clear the other vessel first before any consideration to progressing on your course.
if you are suggesting that the turn should be made to starboard I don't think that matters for a yacht under power - the turn will look the smae on radar to the other ship and is pretty instantanious relative to a large powered vessel; unless of course you have screwed up and are already right next to the other vessel as tcm says in which case full power and about a 145 degree turn to port to clear the other vessel first before any consideration to progressing on your course.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
No.. he means that Rule 19 that specifically states what actions to take in restricted visibility....
mikebees
Well-Known Member
NEVER TURN TO PORT
Andrea Doria
Andrea Doria
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Eh? not sure if that was a serious comment or not....?
If it was then the rules state very clearly that if the vessel is abaft or abeam of you, you should avoid turning towards the vessel... so if its is behind you or on your beam, and on your starboard quarter, then you SHOULD turn to port.....
If it was then the rules state very clearly that if the vessel is abaft or abeam of you, you should avoid turning towards the vessel... so if its is behind you or on your beam, and on your starboard quarter, then you SHOULD turn to port.....
duncan
Well-Known Member
I agree Nas; but we are back to the exact details of the situation set out.
If I am motoring along in a fin keel yacht at 5 knots and become aware that I am on a converging course to this vessel in practice I am going to spin round onto a course that puts him (not his projected course) to port of my heading and keep him there, returning to my course after clearing. As the manoevre will take me 3 seconds to complete and a boatlength if I reduce engine a bit. I am therefore going to turn through 120 degrees in preference to 240.
If I suddenly became aware of the situation I would turn hard to port, open the throttle, and steer around 120 degrees port of my previous heading until I had time to establish distances etc
Additionally, as in an attempt to show I am not completely out of it, I would also point out that an earlier poster was incorrect re not being stand on vessel - in fog there isn't one so the other vessel should be making a turn to starbord if we were on converging courses.
I stand by my view that I would do the same thing as in visual rules, but with greater clarity and clearance in this example - if I did it early.
Practically, if I was steering 0 degrees I would turn sharply onto around 240 or less to put the radar target well to port, then come back onto 0 using my radar range marks to ensure sufficient clearance. If for some reason I suddenly became aware of a target within 2 miles in the same circumstance I am off on 120 like a rabbit...........
My apologies for causing the confusion earlier with my choice of words.
If I am motoring along in a fin keel yacht at 5 knots and become aware that I am on a converging course to this vessel in practice I am going to spin round onto a course that puts him (not his projected course) to port of my heading and keep him there, returning to my course after clearing. As the manoevre will take me 3 seconds to complete and a boatlength if I reduce engine a bit. I am therefore going to turn through 120 degrees in preference to 240.
If I suddenly became aware of the situation I would turn hard to port, open the throttle, and steer around 120 degrees port of my previous heading until I had time to establish distances etc
Additionally, as in an attempt to show I am not completely out of it, I would also point out that an earlier poster was incorrect re not being stand on vessel - in fog there isn't one so the other vessel should be making a turn to starbord if we were on converging courses.
I stand by my view that I would do the same thing as in visual rules, but with greater clarity and clearance in this example - if I did it early.
Practically, if I was steering 0 degrees I would turn sharply onto around 240 or less to put the radar target well to port, then come back onto 0 using my radar range marks to ensure sufficient clearance. If for some reason I suddenly became aware of a target within 2 miles in the same circumstance I am off on 120 like a rabbit...........
My apologies for causing the confusion earlier with my choice of words.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Fair enough Duncan.... your argument makes sense, and I understand and agree with your logic....
Where this type of situation does however worry me is when people are not fully interpreting their radar correctly.... and make a decision in good faith, with sensible logic, but on flawed assumptions....
By that I mean that a vessel that is on a converging course to your starboard, but only slightly different to your course, may well appear to a inexperienced radar user who doesn't have their head around the relative motions, to be on a course at 90deg approaching dead on the beam.... and in that situation, a turn to starboard would be possibly a big mistake....
Where this type of situation does however worry me is when people are not fully interpreting their radar correctly.... and make a decision in good faith, with sensible logic, but on flawed assumptions....
By that I mean that a vessel that is on a converging course to your starboard, but only slightly different to your course, may well appear to a inexperienced radar user who doesn't have their head around the relative motions, to be on a course at 90deg approaching dead on the beam.... and in that situation, a turn to starboard would be possibly a big mistake....
tome
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Contact on radar steady on starboard beam and closing
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't sense any urgent last breath manouevre in this, but we'll have to see what minesapint meant exactly and he's not yet responding to his thread.
Contact on radar steady on starboard beam and closing
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't sense any urgent last breath manouevre in this, but we'll have to see what minesapint meant exactly and he's not yet responding to his thread.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Sorry Tom, I quite agree... we need more info from MINESAPINT to make the correct decision.....
I just know that as a relatively inexperienced radar user, I have to REALLY think about what I am seeing on the display to make sure that I understand what is happening on the water.... and its taken me quite a while of thinking it through, and then checking with the reality up on deck in clear visibility before I am comfortable, that with a bit of thought, I can get it right enough to be safe.... and its all to easy for people to buy in to comments like "Never turn to port" and assimilate what they see on the display, with what they would like to be happening, and hence make a dangerous decision.....
I just know that as a relatively inexperienced radar user, I have to REALLY think about what I am seeing on the display to make sure that I understand what is happening on the water.... and its taken me quite a while of thinking it through, and then checking with the reality up on deck in clear visibility before I am comfortable, that with a bit of thought, I can get it right enough to be safe.... and its all to easy for people to buy in to comments like "Never turn to port" and assimilate what they see on the display, with what they would like to be happening, and hence make a dangerous decision.....
tome
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
as a relatively inexperienced radar user, I have to REALLY think about what I am seeing
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement alone elevates you way beyond a novice. You have recognised the limitations of both the radar and your own experience, which puts you well on course to becoming an experienced user.
If this sounds patronising, I do apologise. I served 4 years on seagoing ships and the radar was never off. Even in good viz, we used it to range what was in sight around us. It taught me that we always under-estimate range- a ship I judged to be 1/2 mile ahead was more than double the distance.
Radar is not a look-see device, unlike GPS. It's more akin to a barometer in that you need to study it over time to build the picture.
Best thing that anyone with radar can do IMO is to use it in good viz. Come the day, this will give you confidence when you need it.
as a relatively inexperienced radar user, I have to REALLY think about what I am seeing
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement alone elevates you way beyond a novice. You have recognised the limitations of both the radar and your own experience, which puts you well on course to becoming an experienced user.
If this sounds patronising, I do apologise. I served 4 years on seagoing ships and the radar was never off. Even in good viz, we used it to range what was in sight around us. It taught me that we always under-estimate range- a ship I judged to be 1/2 mile ahead was more than double the distance.
Radar is not a look-see device, unlike GPS. It's more akin to a barometer in that you need to study it over time to build the picture.
Best thing that anyone with radar can do IMO is to use it in good viz. Come the day, this will give you confidence when you need it.