Radar reflector

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I have a folding reflector on board but generally do not hoist it due to the bulk.

So in order to conform to SOLAS and new regs I am going to get a fixed reflector. I have noticed that reflectors for motor vessels are much cheaper than those for sailing yachts.

Can I assume that the sailing versions are designed to give better reflections when the yacht is heeled and as I own a catamaran which does not heel I should be able to fit a reflector designed for a motor vessel.

Does anyone know the reason why there are two variants, looking online the chandlers do not specify the difference.

Thank you in advance.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ukstaffords.com>http://www.ukstaffords.com</A>

 

[bigmart]

I certainly did not realise there was any difference between Radar Reflectors for power & sail. What kind of price variation have you seen?

Martin

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Actually when I look a little harder, it seems that the difference is the mounting, the sail boat version being for mast or shroud mounting, the motor boat for mounting on fly bridge etc.

Should have looked a little harder, the prices are the same too, I just remember looking months back and noticing the sail boats all seemed to use the pods and the stinkies the tube type. They now sell the tube type for raggies.

Sorry for asking without looking properly first. I will get myself the tube type as I am a cheapskate.


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ukstaffords.com>http://www.ukstaffords.com</A>

 

[Piers]

You raise a number of points.

I would suggest the reason for having a reflector is wanting to be seen, rather than having to comply with SOLAS!

There is no reason why a yacht should be more visible than a power boat, unless there is a chance of a reflection from a wet sail that's upright.

There is no difference between reflectors for power boats or yachts.

Many reports suggest most reflectors are almost useless (wait for the howls of protest), with the possible exception being the aluminium tetrahedral mounted so as to catch rain. But ensure it stays this way when heeled over.

If you go for a active reflector (an electronic target enhancer designed to make your boat look far bigger than it is) only use it when in comparitive isolated areas such as the channel. If you, and one or two others, are using them around Cowes, for example, just imagine what it would look like! The best advice I have ever been given about active reflectors, is to remember they have an off switch!

In my experience, a yacht is normally seen at some 2 miles or less. So a reflector is always good news.

I wonder which reflectors others use, and what evidence they have for their effectiveness?

<hr width=100% size=1>Piers du Pré
http://www.dupre.co.uk

 

[graham]

In rough seas or rain a yacht without a reflector may not be seen at all on radar.

There is an outfall buoy in the area I sail which is reknowned for not showing up well on Radar,

A few years back a ship hit it and smashed the top part off leaving not much showing above water.

A local fishing boat was paid by the water company whose sewer outfall it marks to fit a temporary radar reflector on a post attatched with wire to the top of the damaged buoy until it could be repaired properly.

He fixed a bog standard aluminium octahedral reflector as seen in any chandlers or boat jumble.Result was it showed up really well on radar until the buoy was taken away for repair.Now it shows up poorly again and locally is considered to be something of a hazard.

Good enough proof for me that reflectors work and you dont need anything fancy.Get one as big as you can reasonably fit and remember to mount it in the "catch rain"position ie flat side up not point up.

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[LadyInBed]

Re: I will get myself the tube type

If you mean the thin 2-3 inch Diameter tube, save your money, cut a fender and stuff it with kitchen foil. It will be just as effective!

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[petery]

Does SOLAS specify the performance (surface area I suppose) of a radar reflector that complies with regulations.

It seems we have the choice of a 3" diameter tube that you fit a few feet from the deck or an 8" diameter heavy device that goes above the spreaders or some baking foil wrapped round a fender!!

I would have thought that the large masthead device must be the best bet if you want to be seen - rather than just comply with the regs.

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[LadyInBed]

One of the boaty mags did a comparitive test a year or so back and the octahedral performed as well as the ones that you pay £££ for.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I realise that the octahdral does work well, but am bothered by its cumbersome shape and handling. I will take advice and leave the tube type alone, it just on the face of it seemed the least problem and would dissapear on my mast.

The new regs stipulate that all craft must have a radar reflector; from the RYA website - All leisure boats that go to sea (ie outside of ‘categorised waters’) must comply with the SOLAS regulations. This means that they must carry a radar reflecting device and a copy of the lifesaving signals. <end>

I guess this is pretty ambiguous, it does not appear to stipulate any specification, my mast will reflect RADAR. I do hang the octahedral at night, but during the day it generally lays flat in the sail locker, the swinging about is something I can live without. The regs only tell me I should carry one, not that it should be fixed in place.

What have other people been doing, I generally sail in quiet water and away from shipping, not an excuse, but a reason for not hanging the reflector permanently.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

 

[anabel]

Re: I will get myself the tube type

Most passive reflectors on small craft are pretty useless, even if they do comply with the Regs. They will have a range of a couple of miles. However in rough conditions there there will be a lot of clutter on the ships radar which makes it difficult to see anything small within a couple of miles. The active reflector gives a large echo that will be very noticable on the ships radar. All this assumes that a proper radar watch is being kept by the ship's officer on watch.

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[Piers]

As you say, the octohedral (tetrahedral?) metal build-it yourself works, mainly at short range.

The others MBM tested virtually all appeared next to useless, especially the long thin tubular systems. (There were many thrown on the heap after the article!)

Even though cumbersome and ugly, the octohedral (tetrahedral?) metal build-it yourself is the best. And at the end of the day, who cares about looks if it helps keep the boat afloat!

<hr width=100% size=1>Piers du Pré
http://www.dupre.co.uk

 

[maxi]

Re: I will get myself the tube type

Just forget about the tube type of Mobri reflectors. A quick examination will tell you that they cannot work other than in laboratory conditions, and all the magazine tests confirm that they are of no use whatsoever.

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[robp]

I had a Firdell Blipper fitted last year, which was the accepted best tube. On reflection - whoops! - the newer Echomax tube seems to be getting very good reports, with a much large internal reflective area.

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[Seafort]

What I haven't seen mentioned is the increased wear on the sail.

I'm interested in any comments on the effect of fitting obstructions on the mast.

Dave.

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[dickh]

The current best appears to be the Echomax - I just hoist an octahedral type from thr crosstrees when I'm on passage or on a night passage. I keep it assembled and have fitted wires so it is always in the 'catch rain' position.

<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[willothewisp]

A recent survey in a Dutch sailing mag showed that none of the inactive type reflectors showed on any radar outside a two-mile zone - this included a binliner filled with al. foil. Producers have up to this date been reluctant to comment. However, the larger the surface, the better the reflection. How much scope do you have within a two mile range with a fast moving vessel? Keep a sharp lookout and don't count on being seen. The tube type perfomed worst of all, by the way.

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[duncan]

given recent well publicised incidents in the channel I would have to endose the constant lookout theory.
also unfortunately just when you are out of the busy areas and think you can relax some other bugger is thinking exactly the same................

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

good point ( nm )

.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

 

[bedouin]

Radar reflectors have been mandatory when racing for some time, there I used to take the view that carrying an octohedral type, and only hoisting it when necessary, satisfied the rules.

However I don't think the same is true of SOLAS, so I have fitted a permanently mounted Echomax this winter.

There are a number of studies available on the internet that compare the various types of reflector, after studying it in some detail I went for the echomax because it appears to have the least bad performance - in that it's reflection from the worse angles is much better than any other (especially the octohedral type that gives virtually no reflection at certain angles. This is particularly important on a sailing monohull where you spend a significant proportion of time healled over at 20 degrees.

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[vyv_cox]

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth.

* None of the reflectors available is particularly good, even the active type, which according to the Echomax website performs less well than their product.

* None of them is worth anything if the watchkeeper is not watching, or if the radar is not working, or if the sea state is bad.

* Most ships today do not carry a dedicated radar watcher - you may be reliant on only one man doing the steering, watching, VHF, navigation and coffee making.

* IMHO it is entirely my responsibility to avoid being run down. To this end I have fitted radar that will hopefully advise me of any vessels within a reasonable radius. Otherwise we keep a good look-out but the radar will help in adverse conditions.

* I have fitted a Mobri to satisfy the requirements of any official in future cruises, on the grounds that it causes least damage to sails and is a lot less trouble. About three years ago my Blipper fell to the deck and shattered (it was quite old) and I can do without future repetition.

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