Radar Reflector, practical opinions needed please.....

photodog

photodog

Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
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Okay, So Ive been folowing the Ouzo MAIB stuff, and the previous threads.

Our current, quite tender, 31 foot yacht has NO reflector, and I have been keen to address this for a couple of years,

So I am about to get a bunch of things done which I have on the list for safety for this year,,, including.

1)Deck mount Liferaft with Auto release.
2)Auto Release 406 Epirb

3) Echomax Radar reflector.

But its alltogether a bit expensive.... We already have a 406 GPS PLB, plus a 121.5mhz epirb in the grab bag, plus a raft in the aft locker.

I am for sure getting a new raft, SWMBO cant lift it out of the locker, but
A) should i get a new 406 epirb, (To replace the 121.5) OR
B) is the reflector more important.

Is prevention better than cure, or should I save up some more and next year get a active reflector?

I do feel pretty vulnerable without any reflector, but given the results are they actually worth while, versus a reliable Automatic EPIRB? (The PLB is not automatic and wont float.)

PLUS; How high up the mast do I need to mount the echomax, we are already a fairly tender boat, and I am not keen to put more weight aloft. (We already have the radar up their)

Could I whip off our totally useless Rutland 503 windcharger,and stick the refletor on top of that pole?

Ta


Opnions please....
 
FWIW the Echomaster will not weigh much. When we fitted one half way up the mast of our previous boat, a Shipman 28, there really was no noticeable difference.

There is of course a lot of mixed opinion on whether they are worthwhile. Personally, I would not do without it. I still feel primarily responsible for not getting into bad situations, but trying my best to seen seems a good thing to do. Instead of EPIRB, mmmm that is tough.
 
Radar reflectors are fine in theory, but assume that someone on a ship somewhere is actually watching the radar. A safer approach might be for you to watch your radar and keep out of the way of ships.
 
I have a sea-me and a 16" octahedral to hoist if I run out of sparks (to remain legal). Its a setup that seems to work, my position has been accurately reported in fog and rough sea by various ships and port controls so I am happy that I am seen.

But lots of eyeballs is still the best defence.
 
keeping out of the others way is my current way of thinking! But, with only two of us on board I am reluctant to go below in poor viz, and SWMBO is not keen on learning about the radar.

In reality only a muppet doesnt have a reflector, and I suppose we are kinda Eprib'b up the A****.

I just dont want to leave swmbo in trouble if something happens quick like. (You know boom to my bonce, Etc.)

I have nightmares about floating around in our lifejackts totally screwed. AKA Ouzo, and that boat that inverted off Salcombe last year.

But how high does that Echomax need to be????
 
I would go for a reflector before an EPIRB, prevention of an incident being better than being able to tell people where you are after the event etc...

Having said that, one thing I noticed in Portuguese and Spanish marinas recently that only the British boats had reflectors like the Echomax or whatever. looking around, no other boats seemed to have them.

Presumably they just use temp ones when needed but I am still sure you are better off with it up there all the time.
 
Nick beat me to it - it seems to be a particularly British habit. And now the Quinetic report has proclaimed most of the things to be little better than useless, it's easy to see why.

1. Assume ships won't see you, eyeball or radar
2. Keep out of the way
3. Make yourself noticed in other ways - bright light , flare, VHF
4. Don't sail in shipping areas in poor viz, or when it's forecast OR get your own radar, and learn how to use it.
 
One of the Solas requirements for Radars is to see buoys.

If you have noticed a buoy (UK ones especially) are a lot lower than yachts and have the same type of reflector that MAIB denigrates. So what is the secret of a buoy in comparison to a yacht. They both have a lump of metal in the water (engine) both have a metal tower and both have a passive radar reflector.

It seems odd that one has to be visible and one is not.

If they want to see you they can. It is their choice alone.

I would put a reasonable one fixed high and then have a low big one for 2nm encounters. Maybe the low one would be temporary for night passages only. Both at slightly different angles.
 
Where would an AIS device feature in the forum list of priorities? Only ships of a certain size are required to send out AIS-type signals, would that pretty much be most commercial traffic somewhere like the Channel?
 
A couple of points.
Why this fetish for putting a radar reflector up the mast? The radars of all ships and yachts are so high up that they should get a return long before a collision is imminent. A reflector in your cockpit locker might be just as good. OK I know in very high seas this argument would fall down but when were you last out in 30ft waves?
In Cherbourg last week I would guess that over 90% of French yachts had the long thin type reflectors which a US assessment said would be just fine on a stealth bomber! I suppose they fit these just to satisfy French regs?
 
For a practical answer I think we need to recognise what these things do for you.
Group them in 3 catagories.

1. Things wot help you to stay out of danger as much as possible... Under this heading the first is a brain. Don't rely on others and don't do stupid things like crossing tanker lanes in fog unless you have to and sail defensively. Don't rely on colregs! Then Radar... in case you get caught in fog or poor vis you didn't expect. IMHO AIS is good too but does not replace a good radar.

2. Things wot help you be seen (or heard) by others who you can't necessarily get out of the way of cos you are only little and very slow. Under this heading the radar reflectors are cheap but IMHO limited usefulness. Cos they are cheap everyone should have one. Active "See Me" things are brilliant but expensive. I am saving up for one! But if you sail at night don't forget a big torch to shine on the sails and think back to para 1... do you really want to cross tanker lanes at night? Then white flares which we should not hesitate to use day or night and a good VHF to yell at people with.

3. Things wot save your life if 1 and 2 don't work ( Epirbs, Liferafts, Lifejackets etc.)

My personal view is para 1 is paramount, para 2 is secondary to 1 and para 3 is a real disaster back up. Peoples view of para 3 will differ. Personally I think it depends on your sailing grounds. I don't have an EPIRB and probably won't buy one while I sail in crowded waters in the English Channel. I do have a hand held VHF though and that and my mobile phone stay with me. I think staying warm and dry and afloat and able to attract attention can be achieved very often if you have a large tender almost as well as if you have a liferaft in the channel in moderate seas, but think it has to be carried inflated and ready if you are going to rely on it. I would carry a liferaft and EPIRB for sure if I was going to sail more than 30-40 miles from "busy" waters. Also if your boat is under 36ft or so ( as OUZO was) you can't carry a very big tender blown up so it's actually more important to have a liferaft...
 
You don't have a choice on the radar reflector, you are supposed to have one as long as it is practicable to do so, that's the rules... EPIRB comes after the liferaft, not much point in setting off an EPIRB if you have nothing to float in as you are unlikely to last long enough to be rescued unless close inshore.
 
Well, i didnt know that a radar reflector was required in Solas v, I was aware of the whole passsage plan thing, I wonder how many people know about that?

Anyways , Thanks for all of the input, It helped to clarify my own thinking....

So, upgrading life raft, trading in the valise for a canister and putting it on the coach roof....

Replacing my old 121 eprib with a new 406 with a float free holder....

AND putting on a echomax just above the radar.....

Total cost ..... about £1300.

Plus I think that SWMBO will have to go on a radar course!

Should be the best kitted out 9.5 meter boat in the SW, and as we rarely go more than 5 miles off shore.....surely the most overequipped as well.

Am I being being paranoid enought?

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Given the publicity that Solas V regulations have had on here over the years, it's a bit disappointing that people are still unaware of them. Maybe we need to bring them up again more frequently, but you can't make people read threads they are not interested in.
 
I have a Cyclops 1 at my masthead. Local "racing" men said it's far too heavy for my boat as it's narrow, therefore "tender" so I did the sums and it's ultimate effect is marginal. The Echomax weighs less than my Cyclops.

I don't know why QinetiQ didn't look at the Cyclops range as DERA (a previous incarnation of the same establishment) was intimately involved with the design.

The echomax is a stack of small corner reflectors and ideally should be kept vertical ( I hung my previous stack from the spreader with a weight on the bottom) and this will do more than anything to give a strong consistant reflection. Screwing it to the mast (as many still do) actually blanks it to an overtaking vessel, even when you're motoring (Ouzo was struck by an "overtaking vessel").

Regarding where to mount it.....the higher the better, clear of clutter.

Passive reflectors are not dependent on battery power, and work 24/7. SeaMe and AIS are the belt to the braces of a good passive reflector.

IMO the tubes should be withdrawn.....they've been known to be rubbish for decades.
 
Thanks for that Brendan, I had certainly missed the fact that Solas V now requires a radar reflector at all times. Eminently sensible of course, nothing to object to there and I am certainly compliant when at sea, but I guess it means that my previous habit of hoisting it only when at sea is now technically non compliant and I should have one even when creek crawling in daylight in the Solent..... So its hey-ho up the mast we go with a rivet gun to fit a permanent bracket for my "blipper" I guess....
 
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