Radar/Chart Plotter - which way up?

[BlueSkyNick]

I have been agonising over buying something for quite a while- until last weekend when I couldn't see anything in the Needles channel at more than 200 yards, due to fog. With an experienced crew on helm, his SWMBO on the radar, my SWMBO on eyeball lookout, and me at the chart table reading the GPS and plotting on the chart every 2 minutes, I decided it was time to act !!

I effectively decided on Raymarine last year when having the radar fitted - I can connect any display to the same scanner.

I had eagerly anticipated the E-series until I saw the price - and the size of the heat sink on the back. So now its either an obsolete RL70CRC at about £800, or brand new C-series, about the same price for the 7" screen. WIth the RL I can network 2 together in the future, but don't see this as a major consideration - I could use any other plotter, or the PC, at the chart table.


Apart from the chartware being different (C-Map v Navionics), the screen on the old kit is portrait and the new kit is landscape.

Does it make the slightest bit of difference? Either to radar, chart plotter, or when you have them both next to each other?

Sensible boaty answers only please /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

(PS I just realised this the 15,000th thread on Scuttlebutt - and may there be many more!)

 

[pvb]

Portrait v Landscape...

There effectively isn't a lot of difference in actual usage. With the C-series landscape screen, if you have the larger data boxes (on the right of the screen) you end up with almost a square screen for the plotter/radar image. Similarly, with the RL-series, the data boxes are at the top of the portrait screen, so again the image ends up roughly square. With a split-screen display, the C-series gives you the images side-by-side (so each image is portrait), whereas the older RL-series gives you the images one above the other (so each image is landscape).

A big feature of both models is the ability to superimpose the radar image on the chart display - this is so much more valuable than separate split-screen images.

Go for the biggest display you can afford. With the C-series, the C120 has excellent 800x600 pixel definition, and a screen area more than 3 times bigger than the C70. Or consider the RL80CRC, which has a 10.4" 640x480 screen, and is now available at £1179. I went for a C120, and have mounted it in the cockpit.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: Portrait v Landscape...

Don't forget the power consumption though!

I am looking to upgrade and have been looking seriously at the 435i seems a really good bit of kit. No radar overlay, but I am not sure that is something that would really bother me, I like the radar to be uncluttered and only show targets.

 

[pvb]

Power consumption...

Raymarine 435i (fully backlit) - 10W.
Raymarine C120 (fully backlit) - 12W.
Not really enough to worry about.

If you're considering the 435i, for a couple of hundred quid more you could get an RL70CRC - bigger screen, 4 times the definition, plus the option to add a radome at some time.

 

[Robin]

Several (well 2) tut tuts Nick!

1 tut) Why were you messing with the Needles Channel in fog? The North Channel is much easier and indeed at most states of the tide there is a straight route to/from Poole from just NW of Hurst, no need to pass inside of North Head Buoy. The Needles is more like a winding country lane by comparison.

2 tut) Why were you not in Cherbourg with the rest of your Moody clan and several forum folk, some of which did sterling service replacing the main halyard I lost down in the mast?

We have a choice of 3 C-Map plotters, or 4 including the Yeoman plus one radar so I can speak from some experience of their use in fog over many years. Before anyone says 4 plotters is excessive I will agree, but they sort of breed. One came from our old boat, one is in the cockpit and the 3rd I just bought for almost the same price of the GPS included with it, and was needed to replace the GPS that came with the boat and having gone tits up a replacement was needed to run the Yeoman and DSC (which it has so far flatly refused to do).

OK are you still paying attention?

We run our simple and now ageing Raymarine RL9 Radar on Ships Head Up, simply because without a gyro compass nything else would be too inaccurate IMO on a small boat, PLUS I want the radar to look directly where we are heading just like I would do if there were no fog. The radar is linked to the plotter/GPS so that it can if required display a lollipop on the radar where the next waypoint is.

We run our chart plotters on NORTH UP because that is the way charts are used on the nav table in paper format and again because without a gyro compass anything else would be innacurate with a constantly moving boat.

At the Nav table, in the warm and the dry is where the work is done (by me), in the meantime SWMBO does sterling duty out in the cold and damp up top staring at the fog or the red/gree/white sectored glareback on it of our nav lights. We have a cockpit mounted Navman 5500i colour plotter on the coachroof, usually set to display data such as SOG/COG/BTW/VMG.TTG etc, but can be swapped to chart display in a second. Down below we have now a Navman 5600 6" colour plotter as well as a 10" B&W Raymarine one though this is really now a spare for backup. We also have the Yeoman and associated paper charts.

Navigation and collision avoidance is done from below. Collision avoidance is done using mostly the radar 'trails' function with use of EBL/VRM and cursor if needed for a clearer solution. In the ultimate we also have a wipe clean radar plotting board which with practice is quite good and is a DIY MARPA only more accurate IMO - but this is rarely used in anger because to do so implies the other vessel(s) is too damn close, or the simple trail or EBL/VRM would have been adequate!

In order to maintain a steady heading, the autopilot is ALWAYS used in fog. We can control the autopilot from below at the chart table via a 2nd control head as well as at the wheel and there is a 'Multi' repeater at the chart table also which can display ship's head (actual) as opposed to the pilot setting, this is necessary so that all radar bearings are taken only when the heading is 'on' course, otherwise there will be plotting errors.

Our system works very well within the limitations of small boat use and the (hopefully) limited number of trips done in anger each year in thick fog. So far this year our very first trip of the season was in thick fog so hopefully statistically the rest might be more lucky! We crossed to Cherbourg with 50m vis in both lanes and off Cherbourg irself, whereas whilst off the UK and the French side it was otherwise up to 10 miles, law of Sodde working to perfection! In the Westbound lane we plotted 12 vessels in all, none requiring plotting board plot but 2 needing EBL/VRM marking. In the Eastbound lane we only(!) had 8 vessels to plot of which only 1 required EBL/VRM. We did not fortunately need to alter course at all nor change speed as this would have complicated the plotting, but in each case where we were plotting we did have our get out of the way manouevre at least partially planned as a what if.

I hope if you are still awake after reading that crap it will give you food for thought in making any changes and additions on your boat....

Robin

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: Power consumption...

but does that not require a GPS feed....

I have an SL72 (with Marpa) which is too new to discard. I seriously like the stand alone plotters.

My current unit is B&W and uses about 600MA back lit, I am a little worried about going colour, but I want to change to get XL3 charts, my current plotter is a great bit of kit otherwise.

 

[jimi]

Erm I wonder if your not overcomplicating matters? A Chartplotter will tell exactly where you are (I've a hand held chartplotter + pernament downstairs + HH GPS) and radar will tell whats aroound you. I'm shorthanded or solo (en famille) most of the time so I also have radar at helm. I can manage on my owm + helm and trim sails with that so I'm happy(ish).My worry would be with total integration that if it blew then I'd definitely feel exposed.

 

[tcm]

um, i thort i had already responde4d to this....

the radr would give you a good fix, so shd be no need to panic really. otherwise, i agree with jimi - the total integration is not what it might be.

So, my recommendation is to have a handheld, like the garmin 276. Use it on other boats, no installation needed, can use it in the cockpitpit but keep it elsewhere, massive battery life, don't give it away if sell the bioat, use it on charter boats, no worry of theft from boat and can plan and play at home. The 276 seems pretty advanced stuff too, with tide thingies an so on.

276c with chaort and chips shold be less than 800.

Sepretly, always a bit iffy bout boats with radar somewhere other than near the field of vision and helm - it means that two people are needed in fog or at night..

 

[Sea Devil]

In really thick fog I use cmap on the laptop to tell me where I am exactly - and radar to stop me bumping into other moving objects - or big fixed objects.

Not absoultly certain displaying both sets of info on the same screen would make it any better.....

 

[duncan]

one more vote for seperate screens

another for the good handheld plotter for sailing craft - whilst fixed plotters ar great for mobo's (esp smaller non autopilot ones!) with the helm slavishly manned and the screen set to course up etc for instant info at speed (relative) the yacht 'navigator' can be just about anywhere on the boat and is referencing many things whilst going about his business.

 

[ChrisE]

Well, I'm totally integrated and happy with it. With two identical screens one on the helm and one at chart table both capable of showing whatever information is wanted either together or overlaid or split screen. I should add that we have a hh gps and chartplotter not to mention a PC plus backup with chartplotting and AIS software.

Regarding whether one system is better than another, I reckon its horses for courses. In open water in the TSS then probably the most important thing is head-up radar, personally I don't care where I am in the TSS providing that nothing else wants to share my bit of water. As you near land then radar overlaid on a chart plotter displaying North up is very useful for groping your way into a tight spot in the murk.

Like Robin we can steer via autopilot from above or below.

Not sure about the concerns about the need for radar near the helm until this year we only had radar down below and managed quite happily even when only one of us was on watch. You just make damn sure that you don't get into close quarters positions thus removing the need to be bobbing up and down to check then possibly alter course, etc. In my view you shouldn't be making many course corrections 1. because it confuses those ships around you and 2. becuase it confuses the skipper and the crew.

I guess, the proviso I'd add is that I have technical background so staring at instruments and interpreting their output is second nature to me, I know that the array of kit confuses my better half and I wouldn't necesaarily recommend the above to everybody else.

 

[ParaHandy]

we'll have more aerials on our boats than a russian spy trawler before too long ..... !!

 

[ChrisE]

ah, but they keep the shitehawks off!

 

[tcm]

hm no course corrections eh?

what a brilliant idea! All this time i have been mucking about taking avoiding action in order not to crash into things whereas all i have been doing is confusing the other boats and our crew. OOh look, there seems to be a medium sized sailing boat showing up as S/Y Rival Spirit 4 miles ahead dead on the nose, now hold steady at 24 knots and make our intentions QUITE CLEAR - yes that's right - we're gonna wham into them, yeehah !.....

 

[ParaHandy]

surely penguins where you're off to .. ??

 

[tcm]

same screen

agreed, the "overlay" is a clever trick buut as robin says - radar must be head up, a chart must be North up.

Best thing of course is to be miles offshore so you can hang a big right if anything turns up.....

 

[ChrisE]

Re: hm no course corrections eh?

sometimes, tcm, I think that you deliberately misunderstand me....

 

[ChrisE]

[ QUOTE ]
surely penguins where you're off to .. ??

[/ QUOTE ]

come on, Donald, keep up with the plot, polar bears up north, penguins darn south.

 

[ParaHandy]

ah righto ... here's one migrating ... ?

 

[jimi]

Which direction are you going to see these?