Racing yachts after dinghy's, whats the trick?

[ifoxwell]

Whilst I suspect most would agree that learning to sail in a dinghy gives you a much better feel for what makes a boat work than you can ever get in a yacht, being a good dinghy sailor doesn't just mean that you can jump in a yacht and be at the front of the fleet... as I'm learning

So what tips and tricks can you all offer to people like me, that know how to make a dinghy go but are struggling to get the best out of a yacht?

Cheers

Ian

 

[Ripster]

The obvious one, which I know you have probably thought of, is join a racing crew and see how its done and take in the techniques and tips. Of course what this will do is produce loads more questions for you and then you can bring those to the experts on here

Whilst I suspect most would agree that learning to sail in a dinghy gives you a much better feel for what makes a boat work than you can ever get in a yacht, being a good dinghy sailor doesn't just mean that you can jump in a yacht and be at the front of the fleet... as I'm learning

So what tips and tricks can you all offer to people like me, that know how to make a dinghy go but are struggling to get the best out of a yacht?

Cheers

Ian

 

[MissFitz]

Invest in the North U trim & tactics books, not cheap but very very worth it. The trim one is slightly (but only slightly) less useful for sportsboats - but then they're more like big dinghies anyway.

 

[Keen_Ed]

2 differences: turning corners (requires teamwork and practice) and 2, that the hand on the tiller isn't connected to the hand on the mainsheet. Just sailing the boat in a straight line at best speed requires good communication between the helm, the mainsheet trimmer, the tactician (& nav, if separate), and whoever's calling the gusts.

Other stuff: fleet tactics, course/tide/weather tactics and strategy are broadly the same, but on a different scale.

 

[smeaks]

Whilst I suspect most would agree that learning to sail in a dinghy gives you a much better feel for what makes a boat work than you can ever get in a yacht, being a good dinghy sailor doesn't just mean that you can jump in a yacht and be at the front of the fleet... as I'm learning

So what tips and tricks can you all offer to people like me, that know how to make a dinghy go but are struggling to get the best out of a yacht?

Cheers

Ian

Big arms

 

[Hypocacculus]

You don't say what kind of yacht you have or what kind of racing you are doing. The race tactics and sail trim on a yacht are much the same as a dinghy so you really need to know things that specifically pertain to yachts.

I've done a bit of race crewing; I'm not expert but I've seen enough to know that the following helps:

1. A really well practised regular crew - treat them nice so they'll come back.
2. Use the best sails you can afford; trim them constantly. Yacht owners tend to get lazy.
3. Know your tides/winds and where the flows are strongest and weakest.
4. Once you've sussed out what they are, mark up all your settings on lines and gear so sails etc can be set to optimum really quickly
5. Keep weight down and pay attention to its distribution especially the crew; eg. make any crew not actively engaged in his/her job sits on the high side when beating.
6. Research boat set up as it applies to your particular boat, not just generic advice. Find people racing similar boats and ask lots of questions. Make sure your rig is properly tuned. Pay a good sailmaker to come out and show you your optimum sail set up.
7. A clean bottom.
8. I've seen numerous boat owners try and helm, skipper and navigate at the same time. This is doomed to failure. Delegate the helming at the very least because the only thing the helm should be doing, other than helming, is breathing.

 

[Searush]

Now I am not a racer, by any stretch of the imagination, but Stuart Quarrie says that races are won by those who make the fewest mistakes. A tweak on a big boat doesn't make an obvious difference, but speed may creep up (or down) unnoticed as a result, in a dinghy the consequence of that tweak is more likely to be noticed & actually felt in the boat. Tides & weather are often far more important than gusts & eddies in a wind over a day long race.

 

[nickd]

Dont pinch

 

[lpdsn]

Dinghy sailing should've taught you about helming, the wind and sail trim, and hopefully the RRS.

Biggest thing I always strees to experienced dinghy racers coming to crew on a bigger boat is the difference in power in the lines. Learn to use a winch and learn how to use it properly. In reality, it is just a matter of keeping that in the forefront of your mind, and all your fingers should last long enough for you to get used to bigger boats.

And if you're helming, don't stop on the start line. You need to keep your momentum or you'll just get rolled by the boats above you. Yachts take much longer to accelerate.

 

[lpdsn]

because the only thing the helm should be doing, other than helming, is breathing.

The acronym is JFS.

 

[xyachtdave]

You don't say what kind of yacht you have or what kind of racing you are doing. The race tactics and sail trim on a yacht are much the same as a dinghy so you really need to know things that specifically pertain to yachts.

I've done a bit of race crewing; I'm not expert but I've seen enough to know that the following helps:

1. A really well practised regular crew - treat them nice so they'll come back.
2. Use the best sails you can afford; trim them constantly. Yacht owners tend to get lazy.
3. Know your tides/winds and where the flows are strongest and weakest.
4. Once you've sussed out what they are, mark up all your settings on lines and gear so sails etc can be set to optimum really quickly
5. Keep weight down and pay attention to its distribution especially the crew; eg. make any crew not actively engaged in his/her job sits on the high side when beating.
6. Research boat set up as it applies to your particular boat, not just generic advice. Find people racing similar boats and ask lots of questions. Make sure your rig is properly tuned. Pay a good sailmaker to come out and show you your optimum sail set up.
7. A clean bottom.
8. I've seen numerous boat owners try and helm, skipper and navigate at the same time. This is doomed to failure. Delegate the helming at the very least because the only thing the helm should be doing, other than helming, is breathing.

I'd agree with all of that.

Particularly the bit about being nice to the crew.....

.....and not attempting to drive the boat while shouting at the crew for not doing their jobs to your high standards, using the VHF, arguing the toss over the RRS with other boats while wobbling about all over the course like a drunken penguin.

It's not my sail trim, it's your steering asshat!

When the boat is pointing directly into the wind there's not a lot I can do with this sheet no matter how much you shout at me!

There's a boat I won't be stepping on again that fits the above description....


Edit - Don't think buying 15 grands worth of sails makes up for missing any of Hypo's 1-8 list out. Get those right then spend some money! Welcome to YBW too.

 

[lpdsn]

I'd agree with all of that.

Particularly the bit about being nice to the crew.....

.....and not attempting to drive the boat while shouting at the crew for not doing their jobs to your high standards, using the VHF, arguing the toss over the RRS with other boats while wobbling about all over the course like a drunken penguin.

It's not my sail trim, it's your steering asshat!

When the boat is pointing directly into the wind there's not a lot I can do with this sheet no matter how much you shout at me!

There's a boat I won't be stepping on again that fits the above description....


Edit - Don't think buying 15 grands worth of sails makes up for missing any of Hypo's 1-8 list out. Get those right then spend some money! Welcome to YBW too.

 

[flaming]

All very good tips above.

Number 1 tip is get a settled crew. As soon as you know that you just have to say "This mark is going to be a bear away hoist on Starboard using the S2" and know that everyone understands and it'll work, you relax a lot more. And a relaxed helm is a fast helm....

Next tip is work out what you want to do. If you want to drive, get someone else to to tactics and DO NOT argue with them on the race course. If you find yourself getting involved in the tactics and realise you prefer that then give over the helm. If you want to trim, ditto.... Just because you bought the boat doesn't mean you have to drive, and if you attempt to drive and trim and do tactics you'll soon find yourself having to because any decent crew you had have found other rides....

Then if you're coming from dinghies to yachts, the next tip is to have faith in your trim. I've seen a lot of good dinghy sailors forget how long a yacht takes to accelerate and start changing all sorts of things looking for speed when all they really needed to do was to wait...

 

[ifoxwell]

Well its been a few weeks and we are getting much better.

Generally we sail short handed so I would say the things that are making a difference are.

Thinking well ahead to keep maneuvers to a minimum yet still end up on/in the pieces of water/wind that matter.
Sail trim, especially coming out of a tack... building speed before sheeting everything on hard.
KEEPING CLEAR AIR

Thanks for all the advise guys

 

[Birdseye]

Whilst I suspect most would agree that learning to sail in a dinghy gives you a much better feel for what makes a boat work than you can ever get in a yacht, being a good dinghy sailor doesn't just mean that you can jump in a yacht and be at the front of the fleet... as I'm learning

So what tips and tricks can you all offer to people like me, that know how to make a dinghy go but are struggling to get the best out of a yacht?

Cheers

Ian

There are three big issues. The first is that in a dinghy you are usually sailing in a one make fleet, and info on how to make the baot go passes readily from one to another and is accumulated. You likely know an awfulk lot about how to make your model of dinghy go. You dont have the same info for your model of yacht and just like with dinghies its different for every one.

The second big issue is crewing, both needing a constant crew, getting it trained up, practising, working together

The third is that in most cases the power to weight ratio of the yacht is way worse than the dinghy, yet being in the water all the time means if suffers mmore from drag creating fouling etc. The condition of a yacht is in that sense more important than in a dinghy

I cant think of anything else that is different. Weight matters in both cases, but its more likely the yacht has lots of junk. Condition of the bottom matters in both cases but the dinghy is likely to be shiny and smooth whilst the yacht to be rough. Condition of sails matters in both cases.

Next tip is work out what you want to do. If you want to drive, get someone else to to tactics and DO NOT argue with them on the race course. If you find yourself getting involved in the tactics and realise you prefer that then give over the helm. If you want to trim, ditto.... Just because you bought the boat doesn't mean you have to drive, and if you attempt to drive and trim and do tactics you'll soon find yourself having to because any decent crew you had have found other rides....

.

Couldnt agree more! This is a real issue and one that we struggle with on a boat with 4 skippers

 

[mcframe]

Couldnt agree more! This is a real issue and one that we struggle with on a boat with 4 skippers

Funny you should mention that.

 

[halyardmonkey.]

One thing that I found different is about mainsail trim. Very rarely on our little racing yacht do we end up dumping the mainsheet to de-power. We often de-power by keeping the mainsheet on... often tightening the mainsheet to flatten but then dropping down the traveller (blading out). Also knowing when you change down from loose leach to tight leach also makes a difference. Index everything so you know what you settings are also.
But I would also relay what a sail maker said to a friend do mine. He said sure you can make great gains with a new set of laminate sails but you will loose that advantage if you don't sail with a regular crew who are all akin to the boat.We are always much better if we go for a training sail and get ourselves back into our usual positions.

 

[halyardmonkey.]

And I forgot to mention Spinnakar Work.... Get your launches and drops like a well oiled machine. Kite going up when you round the mark..... Dropping it and having the lines all ready..... Having everything rigged ready to go every time.

 

[Tomahawk]

As an ex racing type most of what I would say has been said except the...... safety issue..

On a dingy, you can stop the boom with your hand during a gybe and grab a flogging spinnaker sheet.

On a yacht over 30ft any of the above will result in broken bones!!

Likewise, when the startline is getting crowded on a dingy you can bump each other or simply push the chap next to you away.. Contact between yachts is dangerous, damaging and expensive... Doesn't stop people sailing to within a foot of eachn other..

 

[savageseadog]

One thing I've noticed about dinghy sailors is that they often don't cope with waves very well. Sailing a yacht through chop and swell is substantially different to the often inland waters dinghy sailors sail on. I've also noticed very different spinnaker handling techniques tried by dinghy sailors on yachts.