Racing Rules vs IRPCS

[DeeGee]

I have just ploughed through the latest thread castigating racing dinghies. What devils these youngsters are!

For most of my life, I raced dinghies, and did my best to understand and follow the Racing Rules. These changed every 4 years, and the nuances of mark rounding, overlaps, continuing obstructions etc., were quite trying to comprehend. How many cruising folk know that there is no such thing as an 'overtaking boat' in racing?

I had no idea or knowledge of IRPCS. How many others, coming from a racing background, can put their hands on their hearts and not say 'me too!'?

I suspect that most of those racing, and upsetting my curmudgeonly friends, have no more of a clue than I did.

<font color=red>How much easier it would be if the RR could have a whole section entitled 'When racing boats meet non-racing boats'</font color=red>. It could contain a summary of the more important aspects of IRPCS, leaving out signals, lights, wattage of bulbs etc.

In the meantime, it is best to assume that they don't know IRPCS and that they will miss you, however it looks, and give a good 'hoioi' shout in timely fashion when they get a bit close. As someone pointed out, they can miss you from 20ft!!

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[tony_brighton]

Usually the stated rule #1 in any racing instructions is that the racing rules in no way superceed the IRPCS. IRPCS should be viewed as the minimum set with racing rules in addition; if you dont know IRPCS then you shouldn't be in charge of a boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Tiger Rag]

"there is no such thing as an overtaking boat in racing"

I have always raced under the rule that, when boats are on the same tack and no overlap has been established the overtaking boat shall keep clear of the boat ahead, has this changed?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DeeGee]

Yes, that is the case, except that the word 'overtaking' is never used! (Except maybe in the current rules, as I haven't raced for the last 3 or 4 years).

The 'overtaking' word is explicit and defined in IRPCS, but is implicit in RR, and obligations defined in terms of overlaps etc.

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[DeeGee]

Well, here's someone who misses the point.

You raced BEFORE cruising, and knew IRPCS? Bully for you, but I will be surprised if you are not in a minority. All my friends who are still racing, and have never been cruising, know only of IRPCS by the scant reference they get up front of the RR. But, being sensible guys, and knowing the racing rules, they manage to avoid banging into people.

No young spark learning to sail and race is in the slightest bit interested in IRPCS. The RYA courses in racing do not include them in the syllabus, or, if they do, they are observed by omission! My point is that WE should bear this in mind, and act accordingly, and with a bit of laissez-faire.

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[jimi]

I thought that an overlap was only relevant in mark rounding to establish whether one was entitled to water or not?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DeeGee]

As a rider to my last - do YOU know IRPCS? I know enough, but I also know I don't know them all as thoroughly as I wish I could. For example, I might have difficulty telling you what the range of my motoring light should be, or the height which a vessel over 200m should locate his port and starboard lights, or the sound signal made in fog by a vessel aground... (remember, I said I might... I actually know those).

If the answer is that you, too, know enough - at what point do you draw the line when you say that one should not be in charge of a vessel unless you know them ( ...ALL?).

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[DeeGee]

I can't quote the current rules, as I haven't been racing for hmmm a few years, but the last set I worked with:::::

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 A boat clear astern that becomes overlapped to leeward and within two of her hull lengths of a windward boat shall not sail above her proper course while the boats remain overlapped and less than that distance apart, unless as a result she falls astern of the windward boat.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.

This seems somewhat ambiguous, if the SI do not 'so state'...

'The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1. The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea or government right-of-way rules apply between a boat sailing under these rules and a vessel that is not, and they replace these rules if the sailing instructions so state'.



<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by DeeGee on 22/07/2003 17:25 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Jimmy20V]

In my many many years of dinghy racing it has always been made very clear to all competing racers that (knowledge of IRPCS or not) they must give way to all vessels who are not racing. I'm rather suprised at the aggression in this thread as it is also understood by the majority of cruisers that wherever possible it is best to stear clear of a racing fleet but as regards learning col regs the basic principles of the "rules of the road" are as simple as the highway code. I think you'd be fairly upset if drivers were allowed on the roads without a comprehensive understanding of traffic signals,flow,roundabouts etc, or am I wrong? As the son of a Master Mariner and an former professional seaman myself I am aware that sometimes col regs are referred to "in situ" but never the less an understanding of all the basic rules should be in place before you take command of a vessel of any size

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[bedouin]

In the offshore/inshore sailing world, the Sailing Instructions usually point out the IRPCS apply - and in the case of offshore races Racing Rules do not apply at all at night, but IRPCS is used instead

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[charles_reed]

The real problem occurs

when you are suddenly surrounded by a fleet of big Lasers and you discover that they're on the 2nd day of their 2-week dinghy sailing course.

As they get closer one realises they're NOT in control - it's amazing how quickly you can get up 36m of 8mm chain and get the hell out of it.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DeeGee]

I couldn't agree with you more... what distressed me in reading the preceding thread was talk which seemed to suggest handling one's boat so as to put dinghy sailors at risk. Common sense, not real knowledge of ColRegs, means the dinghy is unlikely to hit your boat, and if they are lacking in knowledge, it is because that knowledge is not encouraged properly. ISAF RR only briefly refer to them, and it is expected they get knowledge from somewhere else. The worst that usually happens is that some 'verbal' indication of misunderstanding occurs, and my intent is to explain why that misunderstanding ( 'Oi, can't you see I'm racing!!' etc) happens, and for us to be a little more lenient.


<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[DeeGee]

Hmmm, not 'quite' the sort of racing I was talking about!! If you HAVE to use ColRegs, then, of course, you get to know them, but, if you have only sailed dinghies, it is a different story.

I have no argument with those who do know the rules, what I am suggesting is a bit of understanding for those who don't, and are not encouraged to learn.

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[DeeGee]

Re: The real problem occurs

But the real problem is education, education, education.

I have rather expected to be 'shot down' by an RYA sailing instructor telling me that it is all in the syllabus, racing level 3, or something - which I would counter by saying in the syllabus doesn't mean it generally gets covered!

I think you will probably agree that the evidence you quote suggests they are indeed in ignorance of ColRegs - it therefore behoves us to understand.... and get the hell out of there! Just how fast CAN you get that chain up???? ( I reckon you just become a moving target, rather than a stationary one, surely more demanding on these out of control lasers??).

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[tony_brighton]

Thats a fairly insulting response. I made no reference about my own background in both racing and cruising so thats a huge assumption from you.

You seem to be advocating ignoring IRPCS and making special allowance for people's ability to avoid at the last minute. My point was that IRPCS takes precedence over racing rules - whether you like it or not.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tony_brighton]

And yet you seem keen to know all the racing rules...

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[AndrewB]

What\'s the difference?

Most contention arises over cruising and racing yachts (or dinghies) in close-quarters situations. These situations are covered by IRCPS rules 12 - 17 and ISAF rules 10 - 17 respectively.

Sorry if its a DQOTD, but is there anywhere an idiot's guide to the circumstances in which the two rules are incompatible? In particular, what actions are permitted by the racing rules that would be forbidden by IRPCS?

 

[peterb]

Re: What\'s the difference?

Sorry, Andrew, but you've missed out the rule which probably has most bearing on the situation. Although you sometimes hear criticism from cruising boats which are sailing, by far the most common complaints come from boats under power, usually because racing sailing boats expect them to give way under Rule 18, power v sail.

The one you haven't mentioned is Rule 9, Narrow Channels. Almost always the complaint comes from boats which are 'attacked' in waters in which their possible courses of action are restricted by shallows. In IRPCS this problem is dealt with under Rule 9. In particular, Rule 9(b) says that a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. Add to that Rule 8(f)(i) which says that a vessel required not to impede the passage of another vessel shall take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel. The RYA's note to Rule 8 says that action to avoid collision must be taken in good time and in such a manner that the "stand on" vessel is left in no doubt that the "give way" vessel is taking avoiding action.

This isn't just a matter between leisure craft. I remember being on the bridge of a Condor cat coming in to Poole. A keelboat (type not recognised) was tacking up the starboard side of the channel, and when on starboard tack came up so close that the master lost sight of her from the wing of the bridge. There was an audible sigh of relief when she reappeared, now on port tack. The Condor could have done absolutely nothing to prevent a collision if the tack had been missed for any reason.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DeeGee]

Sorry if it came across as insulting. Meant to be semi-jocular, but your posting was directed at me rather than the issue I was raising.
Perhaps I was not clear... young people, and maybe not so young, who ONLY race and have ever only raced, are not positively encouraged or trained to know IRPCS to any useful extent. We, that is you and I, cannot change that, and should take it on board when we are sailing. 'They' will be sailing to the racing rules, and they will be thinking simple port/starboard, leeward/windward - which are not so far from IRPCS - but the subtle differences will not be in their minds.
For people to talk in a tone of lorries vs minis seems appalling to me. I am simply advocating understanding and tolerance, rather than boat-rage! -)

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[DeeGee]

Not quite sure what point you are making, it seems to be related only to me rather than the issue I was trying to shine a different light on - but my attitude to racing was (I do not race anymore) to know the rr as thoroughly as I could. My attitude to cruising once I started cruising was to know colregs as thoroughly as I could.


<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all