Racing in a narrow fairway channel ?

[Mwinda]

To clarify an earlier post re "constrained by draft" and sailing v motoring....

I presume a sailing vessel proceeding under motor alone (through said narrow Emsworth channel for example) can be "constrained by draft"?

 

[colingr]

Yes(ish)

(h) The term “vessel constrained by her draught” means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

You could argue that the yacht is not truly constrained as it could alter course within the confines of the channel.

But must be showing the appropriate day shapes / lights.

We won't mention motoring cones at this juncture

 

[fireball]

To clarify an earlier post re "constrained by draft" and sailing v motoring....

I presume a sailing vessel proceeding under motor alone (through said narrow Emsworth channel for example) can be "constrained by draft"?

IMHO - Not really - there would be very few places in the harbour where I would say you can't manoeuvre due to draft - examples would be the approach channels to the marinas - they tend to be narrow and sometimes dredged - so have steep sides - go off course and you'd be quickly aground.

In the main channels where the racing usually takes place there is a lot of water - but with a big fleet of dinghies all over the place it can be difficult to pick a course through them - sometimes it is easier to stick the sails up and claim colregs rights! - this is when even the most experienced skipper can't do anything right ... About the only option Galadriel would've had to avoid the fleet would've been to follow us - drop anchor at East Head and try again an hour later ...
A lot of racers will avoid a close quarters situation with a non-racing vessel - purely because it will distract them and may cause them to alter course and ultimately loose places - but it seems there are still those who can't see beyond the bow and fail to spot that the skipper of the cruiser has little choice in the matter.

 

[Sans Bateau]

To clarify an earlier post re "constrained by draft" and sailing v motoring....

I presume a sailing vessel proceeding under motor alone (through said narrow Emsworth channel for example) can be "constrained by draft"?

To suggest a sailing yacht might be constrained by draft in Emsworth Channel is inappropriate use of the IRPCS ruling.

 

[A1Sailor]

From the ESSC Dinghy Sec

Dear All,
The ESSC Dinghy Sec has posted, #26 in this thread. He posted yesterday, but since it was possibly held up until moderated it only appeared in the thread a few hours ago.
Many of you won't have seem it. It is copied below for those who haven't.
Welcome to Scuttlebutt, Mark!

A1

Hello all,

My first post on this forum, I'm the Dinghy Secretary at Emsworth Slipper Sailing Club. We had a Topper Open meeting on Sunday the 20th May, and judging by the OPs description it may well have been our racing in the Sweare Deep area that gave cause for consternation (30 11-15 year olds in Toppers strikes fear into the hearts of most experienced sailors, dinghies and cruisers alike!).

We will look into this as a club. We have as many cruiser sailors as dinghy sailors at Slipper, and take all reasonable actions to ensure harmony across the water users in Chi Harbour - for example, in busy racing periods we postpone dinghy starts if a yacht is attempting to navigate the channels to the marina, as the channels by the millpond really are narrow and larger boats have no navigational options.

We always look for ways in which to improve our briefings/SIs/etc, if we can learn from this particular incident then we welcome the opportunity to do so.

I'll update this thread once we have investigated, but please do not expect an update before next week - we have a Sailing Committee on Monday where we expect to discuss.

Affinite - I can understand how a situation of this nature can cause distress, please take my assurances that we'll try and find ways to ensure that you are not put in the same position again. Feel free to send me more details, I'd welcome the input.

Best regards, Mark.

 

[Stoshak]

I think that was a splendid response from ESSC, and does them great credit. Chichester Harbour is a most wonderful sailing area, andwe should try to live amicably together.

And the Topper sailors who eventually become cruiser skippers will always have superior sailing skills.

Was it Herbert's Sadler?

 

[Seajet]

To suggest a sailing yacht might be constrained by draft in Emsworth Channel is inappropriate use of the IRPCS ruling.

Galadriel,

please explain ? It's true one shouldn't come to much harm if forced aground in the Emsworth Channel, but doing so on a falling tide could be awkward for fixed keel boats; they may have an important appointment, or even be a diabetic keen on getting insulin, nobody but the skipper has the right to delay them.

A very experienced chum with a 35' ferro boat once went onto the putty there, after sailing across the Channel singlehanded and fatigue combined with a missing channel mark perch got to him ( his charter party had refused to lift a finger to help ); as we went to help him he still had steam coming out of his ears, " nobody say a word !!! "

I've done a lot of dinghy racing, but have always tried to be courteous and seamanlike; if a dinghy - or yacht - bod starts shouting 'we're racing ! ' while one is in a narrow channel ( and BTW I don't consider Emsworth Channel narrow ) it may have been known for the response to be " that's your problem mate ! "

 

[affinite]

Whos Herbert ?

I think that was a splendid response from ESSC, and does them great credit. Chichester Harbour is a most wonderful sailing area, andwe should try to live amicably together.

And the Topper sailors who eventually become cruiser skippers will always have superior sailing skills.

Was it Herbert's Sadler?

Agree on the response from ESSC - Ive already passed on my thanks to Mark for their swift response. (I hadn't even been in touch directly)

 

[Sans Bateau]

Galadriel,

please explain ?

From IRPCS

(h) The term "vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

Yes you can run aground in Chichester Harbour, I have, you can anywhere for that matter. But I dont know of any channel which even a sizable yacht cannot do a 360 deg turn in.

In any case a vessel claiming this would have to show appropriate day marks or lights.

 

[robp]

This might help for the weekend..

Racing
The race start times are shown below along with the part of the harbour where the race will take place.
Saturday 26th May
Itchenor Keelboats 1030 – 1050 Chichester Channel
Chichester Cruiser Racing Cruisers 1200 Hayling Bay
Hayling Island Various Classes 1400 – 1415 Harbour South
Itchenor Keelboats 1410 – 1430 Chichester Channel
Emsworth Mixed Handicap 1430 Sweare Deep / Hayling Bay
Itchenor Asymmetrics 1440 – 1450 Chichester Channel
Bosham Classic Dayboats 1500 – 1520 Bosham Channel
West Wittering Mixed Handicap 1515 Harbour South

Sunday 27th May
Itchenor Swallows 1000 Chichester Channel
Bosham Mixed Handicap 1100 – 1115* Bosham Channel
Hayling Island Various Classes 1100 – 1115 Harbour South
Itchenor Swallow 1100 Hayling Bay
Itchenor Keelboats 1110 – 1120* Chichester Channel
Itchenor Asymmetrics 1130 – 1140 Hayling Bay
Mengeham Rythe Mixed Handicap 1500 – 1505 Harbour South
Chichester Mixed Handicap 1530* Chichester Lake

* Denotes back to back races.

 

[Seajet]

Galadriel,

fair enough; I was thinking of the spirit rather than letter of the IRCS, always a dangerous thing to do !

To be faced with 100 dinghies is a bit much; they were lucky that you are experienced, but a novice might have done something to cause a nasty accident !

In my experience, race organisers don't often seem to consider other boat users, and as I mentioned previously, even experienced dinghy racers can be red hot on tactics, but without a clue about seamanship or nav' marks !

 

[Sans Bateau]

Galadriel,

fair enough; I was thinking of the spirit rather than letter of the IRCS, always a dangerous thing to do !

To be faced with 100 dinghies is a bit much; they were lucky that you are experienced, but a novice might have done something to cause a nasty accident !

In my experience, race organisers don't often seem to consider other boat users, and as I mentioned previously, even experienced dinghy racers can be red hot on tactics, but without a clue about seamanship or nav' marks !

120% spot on!

 

[wotayottie]

As you were a vessel constrained by its draft you had right of way, plain and simple.

.

But he wasnt since he wasnt showing the day shape. In any case from Seajets description of the waters concerned, the OP wasnt really constrained in practise anyway.

 

[ESSC Dinghy Sec]

All,

A belated response on the incident in question from Emsworth Slipper SC.

The event in question was indeed the Topper Open meeting run by Emsworth Slipper SC - 30 Toppers sailors, typically 11-16 years old with a wide range of abilities. The racing took place to the south of the Sweare Deep, the channel is approximately 200-220m wide in this area. The start line was approx 70m long and set in the westerly side of the channel, with the pin end just outside.

The race officer and patrol boats clearly recall the incident described by the OP. The Sadler 32 passed through the start line at the preparatory signal, with 4 minutes to the start. The Race Officer took a judgement that the cruiser would be well clear of the start and course by the point at which the Toppers started their race. Unfortunately, the Toppers caught up with the cruiser after 10 minutes or so, and one of them capsized close to the stern of the Sadler as described by the OP. There were no unseemly comments from any patrol boat to the crew of the Sadler, or indeed from the Sadler to the patrol boat.

As a club, we already recognise the potential for conflict between water users. We include the following in our standard operating procedures to minimise conflict:

- As part of our briefing for open meetings and larger events, the patrol boat teams are briefed to inform passing traffic of the racing, and to aid their passage through the racing area. We do not expect cruisers to stop and wait (although many do), we simply try to make sure that approaching traffic has an understanding of the dinghies in front of them, and the easiest way through! Patrol boats do not get to every passing cruiser as they can be aiding dinghies, but we do get to a good proportion.
- Our club start/finish line crosses the channel approaching Emsworth marina. The channel at that point is narrow, and we understand that cruisers under motor are constrained by draft. For this reason, we postpone starts for large fleets in the event that a yacht is navigating that channel.
- Our 'start the season' briefings cover the ColRegs and explain the need for tolerance across the communities that share the fantastic waters of Chi Harbour.

As regards this particular incident, on reflection the Topper start could have been postponed to give the Sadler more time to clear the course - we will factor this into future briefings.

The key message we give to all sailors in our club - irrespective of whether they have Hallberg Rassy or Optimist - is that we must all promote harmony and tolerance across the different communities on the water. To do anything other simply detracts from the enjoyment of our wonderful sport.

We have discussed with OP off line and both sides fully understand the situation and possible actions that could have been taken by the race team and cruiser. Chichester Harbour is a wonderful place to be on the water and with continual harmony can be enjoyed by all types of craft and activities.

Best regards, Mark.

 

[Seajet]

All,

A belated response on the incident in question from Emsworth Slipper SC.

The event in question was indeed the Topper Open meeting run by Emsworth Slipper SC - 30 Toppers sailors, typically 11-16 years old with a wide range of abilities. The racing took place to the south of the Sweare Deep, the channel is approximately 200-220m wide in this area. The start line was approx 70m long and set in the westerly side of the channel, with the pin end just outside.

The race officer and patrol boats clearly recall the incident described by the OP. The Sadler 32 passed through the start line at the preparatory signal, with 4 minutes to the start. The Race Officer took a judgement that the cruiser would be well clear of the start and course by the point at which the Toppers started their race. Unfortunately, the Toppers caught up with the cruiser after 10 minutes or so, and one of them capsized close to the stern of the Sadler as described by the OP. There were no unseemly comments from any patrol boat to the crew of the Sadler, or indeed from the Sadler to the patrol boat.

As a club, we already recognise the potential for conflict between water users. We include the following in our standard operating procedures to minimise conflict:

- As part of our briefing for open meetings and larger events, the patrol boat teams are briefed to inform passing traffic of the racing, and to aid their passage through the racing area. We do not expect cruisers to stop and wait (although many do), we simply try to make sure that approaching traffic has an understanding of the dinghies in front of them, and the easiest way through! Patrol boats do not get to every passing cruiser as they can be aiding dinghies, but we do get to a good proportion.
- Our club start/finish line crosses the channel approaching Emsworth marina. The channel at that point is narrow, and we understand that cruisers under motor are constrained by draft. For this reason, we postpone starts for large fleets in the event that a yacht is navigating that channel.
- Our 'start the season' briefings cover the ColRegs and explain the need for tolerance across the communities that share the fantastic waters of Chi Harbour.

As regards this particular incident, on reflection the Topper start could have been postponed to give the Sadler more time to clear the course - we will factor this into future briefings.

The key message we give to all sailors in our club - irrespective of whether they have Hallberg Rassy or Optimist - is that we must all promote harmony and tolerance across the different communities on the water. To do anything other simply detracts from the enjoyment of our wonderful sport.

We have discussed with OP off line and both sides fully understand the situation and possible actions that could have been taken by the race team and cruiser. Chichester Harbour is a wonderful place to be on the water and with continual harmony can be enjoyed by all types of craft and activities.

Best regards, Mark.

Hello Mark,

we don't know each other but I expect we've exchanged waves on the water.

I know Sweare Deep quite well, and your reply seems top-notch and fully explanational to me.

I have raced & sailed various boats there since 1972, but have no connection with ESSC.

Regards,

Andy

 

[A1Sailor]

Hello Mark,

your reply seems top-notch and fully explanational to me.

+1. Thanks for the update Mark, although I have only a vague idea where Chichester Harbour is!

 

[wotayottie]

All,

A belated response on the incident in question from Emsworth Slipper SC.

The event in question was indeed the Topper Open meeting run by Emsworth Slipper SC - 30 Toppers sailors, typically 11-16 years old with a wide range of abilities. The racing took place to the south of the Sweare Deep, the channel is approximately 200-220m wide in this area. The start line was approx 70m long and set in the westerly side of the channel, with the pin end just outside.

The race officer and patrol boats clearly recall the incident described by the OP. The Sadler 32 passed through the start line at the preparatory signal, with 4 minutes to the start. The Race Officer took a judgement that the cruiser would be well clear of the start and course by the point at which the Toppers started their race. Unfortunately, the Toppers caught up with the cruiser after 10 minutes or so, and one of them capsized close to the stern of the Sadler as described by the OP. There were no unseemly comments from any patrol boat to the crew of the Sadler, or indeed from the Sadler to the patrol boat.

As a club, we already recognise the potential for conflict between water users. We include the following in our standard operating procedures to minimise conflict:

- As part of our briefing for open meetings and larger events, the patrol boat teams are briefed to inform passing traffic of the racing, and to aid their passage through the racing area. We do not expect cruisers to stop and wait (although many do), we simply try to make sure that approaching traffic has an understanding of the dinghies in front of them, and the easiest way through! Patrol boats do not get to every passing cruiser as they can be aiding dinghies, but we do get to a good proportion.
- Our club start/finish line crosses the channel approaching Emsworth marina. The channel at that point is narrow, and we understand that cruisers under motor are constrained by draft. For this reason, we postpone starts for large fleets in the event that a yacht is navigating that channel.
- Our 'start the season' briefings cover the ColRegs and explain the need for tolerance across the communities that share the fantastic waters of Chi Harbour.

As regards this particular incident, on reflection the Topper start could have been postponed to give the Sadler more time to clear the course - we will factor this into future briefings.

The key message we give to all sailors in our club - irrespective of whether they have Hallberg Rassy or Optimist - is that we must all promote harmony and tolerance across the different communities on the water. To do anything other simply detracts from the enjoyment of our wonderful sport.

We have discussed with OP off line and both sides fully understand the situation and possible actions that could have been taken by the race team and cruiser. Chichester Harbour is a wonderful place to be on the water and with continual harmony can be enjoyed by all types of craft and activities.

Best regards, Mark.

Nicely written reply.

 

[Lakesailor]

Oh for heaven's sake.
Not aimed at anyone in particular.
Everyone is out for a bit of fun on the water. If there is a race let them flail about and keep out of their way. What harm does it do you?
Unless you insist of the letter of the regs and want everyone hung drawn and quartered. In which case you are a bit niggardly.

There's lots of racing on Windermere and I tend to stay upwind of them so I know they can't head-up to my course. Until they all start tacking.........

 

[lw395]

Sounds to me like the Sadler was not keeping a good lookout astern.
Had he done so, he might have avoided a fleet of toppers.