Racial Bias?

[rhinorhino]

Why do you see so few members of ethnic minorities sailing in the UK? Outside of sail training I can't remeber the last time I saw a non-white person, why should this be?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Chris_Stannard]

Living in Cowes, I don't think you are right. I would guess that amongst visiting yacht crews there are about the same proportion of some ethnic minorities as there are in the population. Having said that I think it is possible that those of Asiatic appearance are comparitively rare, and this is possibly because a very large proportion of Asian peoples live a long way from the sea and never see it.

But then you could ask why the fair sex is so under represented. I know a lot of very good lady sailors but they are very much a minority. Luckily for me SWMBO really enjoys her sailing and we sail two handed, largely she insists with me communicating decisions by telepathy.


<hr width=100% size=1>Chris Stannard

 

[webcraft]

Do you really need to ask?

Most of them can't afford it. Those who can are probably (rightly or wrongly) intimidated by the thought of the reception they may receive in what is perceived by many to be a traditionalist and somewhat right-wing social group.

And finally . . . there is no yachting tradition in many of their cultures.

Some W. Indian boat boys might make the Solent more interesting though . . .

- Nick

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>

 

[Jacket]

<Most of them can't afford it.>

I'd imagine its comments like that which put most off sailing.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[vyv_cox]

I think there is a deeper cause than you suggest. I live in The Netherlands, where it appears to me that there is a considerably higher proportion of the population that is not white. I suspect that your income factor is much less relevant here than in UK. Despite that, I cannot bring to mind any occasion when I have seen a non-white person on a boat. Not true of France, where I have seen a few people of African descent on yachts, although this was rare.

Maybe it's some sort of historical thing, Brits, Dutch, French, have a long history of seafaring and it's tied up with our perception of who we are?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[webcraft]

Don't understand that comment, Jacket . . . I think you'll find that the average income earned by non-white citizens of this country is substantially less than the overall national average income, for a whole host of reasons. This means that they will therefore be under-represented in any sport with relatively high costs.

Those who are earning more are likely to be working so hard that they don't have time for frivolities like sailing.

I can't see how a simple socio-economic observation is in itself going to put anyone off anything . . . I think you have missed my point somewhere.

This thread would have more relevance if we could get a comment from any 'ethnic minority' yachties out there - surely there must be one or two among us? Otherwise, we're not really qualified to comment.

- Nick



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>

 

[webcraft]

Hi Vyv,

You're probably right - Holland is a very different society, more relaxed and egalitarian than ours.

I would have thought that plenty of Dutch had married non-whites and some SWMBOs at least would therefore be introduced to the pleasures of a nautical heritage.

I've only sailed with one non-white person - she really enjoyed a two week delivery trip in March/April half way round the UK - I hope she's taken it up big time and has had a great season.

(Hi Devi, if you're reading this)

- Nick



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>

 

[Jacket]

Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick.

Not totally convinced by the money argument though, as you don't get many ethnic minority's in dinghy clubs, which can be done on a budget, depending on the sailing club. My old club encouraged everyone to sail, with low membership fees and pleanty of club boats that could be borrowed. Probably close to a third of the members were on minimum wage or benefits, and yet all the 200 odd members where white. I can't help feeling that its the "Blazers and old school tie" image that puts people off, rather than money.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Twister_Ken]

The answer to the question must be cultural rather than income-related. Yes, the Afro-Caribbean community in the UK does earn less, on average, than WASPs. but that is an average. There are plenty of coloured people with above average earnings. And in any case, lack of funds has never really been a bar to going sailing - I started sailing as a more-or-less penniless student and so did many others. It is, I suspect, becasue we yachties are seen as a closed-shop, unwelcoming to outsiders. Which is wrong. But it happens to WASPs as well. I've felt very unwelcome in certain YCs in the past.

Sailing is perceived as white and middle/upper class. So is show jumping, for example. So too was rugby, but that perception is now, fortunately, breaking down - although not fast enough. Especially when compared with soccer. The last rugby team I coached, lads who are now under-18s, had probably one third of the squad from black and coloured homes. We picked-up one strapping lock from a local club where he had not been welcome and we turned him into a county-triallist. He really enjoyed scoring against his old club! Our 'minorities' proportion was similar to that of some other teams, yet others we played were entirely white. At club level it is possible to be welcoming to blacks and coloureds, but I suspect that few sailing clubs are ever approached by non-white hopefuls.

Maybe it is down to us all to be more welcoming, and more inclusive?



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Sybarite]

I think the question should be " How often have you invited people of different racial origins on your boat?"

I had a refugee family on my boat for a week this summer and they were wonderful company. It is so nice to have people with you who are really enthusiastic.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Seafort]

Re: Its too B***** Cold.

Really. Half my familly think I'm a total nutter for getting anywhere near the freezing seas in the U.K.

Mooring fees alone would buy the air fair for 4 holidays at the house in SVG. Whilst there I have access to a number of water-craft owned by family and friends (One of whom is indeed an ex boat-boy from Chataubelair).

Generally it is the older people that have the [Now] disposable income to spend on yachting. The thing is its these guys that dream of retiring "Home" to the sun.

When my generation [UK born] starts coming up to retirement age you might see some changes, mind you I'm off to the Med, Canaries and the Caribean as soon as the finances are in place.../forums/images/icons/wink.gif.

Come see me in the Caribee

Dave.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Magic_Sailor]

Non-white??

There is no racial bias that I'm aware of. I've seen training boats in the Solent with black people on - all having a good time. I was slightly concerned to note that all the black people were on one boat and all the white on another but as was pointed out to me; that may have been the choice of the black people. I've seen boats in France with black people on board.

As for being an essentially right wing, well off sport. Well...

I'm neither.

Maybe black people just don't want to go sailing. To suggest racism has something to do with it is an inference too far.

It is the terminology in the posts here which gets my goat.

What is all this "non-white people" malarkey anyway? Frankly, I find this kind of term not only slightly pathetic in its political correctness but also totally non-descriptive as it includes every race under the sun. I'm not white. I'm a sort of pinky, yellowy colour. On this basis, if you call me white I'll say your making a whiteist, racist comment - which is a pathetic idea but logically acceptable.

Would someone please tell me what term is acceptable to describe a particular race.

If I say that because you're black then your bad - that's racist.

If I say you're black and you don't go sailing much - that's not racist.

Magic

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://hometown.aol.co.uk/geoffwestgarth/myhomepage/travelwriting.html>Click for website!</A>

 

[webcraft]

Re: Its too B***** Cold.

Hi Dave,

I overlooked the temperature factor . . .

And you're right, why sail in the UK if you have access to boats warmer waters?

I'm hoping to get out to the Canaries for some time on a friend's boat myself this Winter - although I'm probably going to be too busy earning the dosh to put Fairwinds back in the (freezing Scottish) water ready to go in the Spring.

- Nick


<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>http://www.bluemoment.com</A></font size=1>

 

[Magic_Sailor]

I couldn't agree more with your comment about being more inclusive. But you can only include people who want to be included otherwise we'll end up with the awfulness of positive discrimination and quotas at club abd school level.

Magic

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://hometown.aol.co.uk/geoffwestgarth/myhomepage/travelwriting.html>Click for website!</A>

 

[Magic_Sailor]

No it shouldn\'t

Or else then you must ask the question "when did a black person last invite me to be included in a mainly black pastime". Your premise has the smack of a quota about it.

This way madness lies - there's no end to it.

Surely, we should all just treat one another with the respect we all deserve and be as inclusive as natural frienships allows.

Magic

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://hometown.aol.co.uk/geoffwestgarth/myhomepage/travelwriting.html>Click for website!</A>

 

[Seafort]

Re: Its too B***** Cold.

I'm due back in at the end of a holiday (Three weeks in SVG) and I think it will be B***** cold at the end of March.

>>Why sail in the UK if you have access to boats warmer waters?<<

I simply cant get enough!

Dave.





<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Seafort]

Re: Its too B***** Cold.

I'm due back in at the end of a holiday (Three weeks in SVG) and I think it will be B***** cold at the end of March.

>>Why sail in the UK if you have access to boats warmer waters?<<

I simply cant get enough!


Dave.

ok may be a double post here....sorry, got a 404





<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Non-white??

OK, I could have said I hadn't seen any black, brown, chocolate, coffee, yellow and all colours in between people. It was a lot easier to say non-white. I suspect that everybody who did not have a mission to prove how un-biased they are had no difficulty whatsoever with the description.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jacket]

Re: Non-white??

Isn't this even more worrying? If it was simply that non-whites (and I'm not being racist, its just easier than saying black, asian, indian...... etc) weren't interested in sailing, that would be one thing. But pleanty seem to take training courses, and then not continue. Why? It would suggest to me that they encounter so much racism that they go and take up a more friendly hobby.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[kilkerr1]

Been reading this thread with great interest, and am not surprised there's no-one else 'of colour' out there answering. So I'll have a go. I'm mixed race and my grandfather was one of those West Indian 'boat boys' who came over in the 50s. Apparently he stowed away on a ship bound for the UK from Jamaica when he was 15, but that's another story...

I've never seen anyone black or asian on a boat, but it's never really surprised me, can't really say why, but's it's definitely a cultural thing, as Ken suggests. Yachting, boating, sailing, whatever you call it, is seen as a closed-shop, snobbish, white, middle-class passtime. We told our mates we'd bought a boat and the jokes about gin palaces and St Tropez still haven't stopped. Inclusiveness is a major issue (and I'm not a fan of positive discrimination), but not just towards those within ethnic minorities. It's a class thing too, and there are plenty of white kids out there who would die laughing if you suggested they go sailing.

The lack of money argument simply doesn't hold water. If all black or asian people lived in slums it might, but they don't. So it doesn't.

As for terminology, black is generally used by black people to describe themselves, asian for those of asian descent, etc. Mixed race for anyone who's 'coffee-coloured' like me. I get rather bored of the whole classification thing. And it's only white people who have such long discussions about it...I know it's because they don't want to be accused of being racist (it's much more acceptable to be called sexist, why's that do you think?) but it can be taken too far. These are serious issues but so-called political correctness has tended to go way over the top and end up trivialising the very things it seeks to protect. Banning black bin bags because they're racist, I ask you...

Oh, and I do hope that comment about the weather was a joke, webcraft...you'll be telling us we all have rhythm next...

Happy days /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://kilkerr.members.easyspace.com/santateresa_pics.htm>Santa Teresa and other t'ings</A>