Quoting the age of a boat... what's the norm?

[kcrane]

I'm pretty sure I asked this question a couple of years ago, but a recent exchange with Princess brought it back to mind.

My V48 HIN number finishes J607, so an Oct 06 build to the 07 model year.

Most used boats seem to be sold quoting a single year and my understanding was that the norm was to use the model year, being the last two digits on the HIN number.

Princess Sales tell me they always use the build year, and if the model year is different, they describe it as 2006/07.

The ideal might be for everyone to quote both dates from the HIN even if they are the same, to avoid confusion, but as things stand are Princess out of step with common usage?

 

[jfm]

I'd say princess are out of step. I'd describe your boat as a 2007 in any advert. obviously a purchaser will get all the nitty grtty detail when examining the boat but in an ad it's a 2007 boat imho. All the boats I've owned bave been built in year N with model year N+1 and I would (and have) describe(d) them as N+1 in ads. My current boat is a 2011 spec handed over to me in 2011 with a L0-11 hin number, but it was built throughout 2010, and when I sell it it will be described "2011". The spec of a 2011 is different from a 2010 and as a buyer I would want to know the model year when sifting ads. It is obvious to any buyer that a model year of N+1 will often be built in year N or straddle 31 Dec, and any buyer who cares about that can find out all the details very easily. There is no concealment going on if you call your boat 2007

EBY, the UK's biggest seller, follow the practice I have described.


BTW, my Avon Rib bought new november 2010 has a hin ending A911 becuase Avon buy the grp rib hulls from a contract manufacturer in batches and store them until they're ready to finish the Rib. I'll call it a 2011 when I sell it, if anyone askes/cares!

 

[jfm]

A further thought is that a boat like yours takes 3 months from gelcoat to delivery. Mine took 9 months. So if one goes with Princess's view of the world, is the build year the start or the end of the build? In the case of a v48 this question matters on at least 25% of the fleet. With a 60 footer 50%. With my boat it matters 75% of the time.

Life is much simpler if we quote in adverts the model year. A buyer who is sifting ads will find this much more useful, and if a buyer wants the detail of which months the boat was started and finished in (which will often be different years, straddling 31 Dec) that information will generally be fully availalbe to him

As a general comment, I bet most people do not know princess's policy or other builders' on a "J" boat like yours. Was the gelcoat painted into the mould in October or did the boat leave the factory in October? Anyone know? I know Fairline's policy on this point but i do not think there is consistency on this among builders. I bet the broker whom you're having this debate with doesn't even know.

As I say, much easier to advertise boats by model year

 

[kcrane]

EBY, the UK's biggest seller, follow the practice I have described.

I made the point to Princess that though it is simply a choice which way to play it, the majority of people (incl. brokers) would assume the model year.

Funny you should say "...there is no concealment going on..." as the impression I got was that they thought doing other than using the build date was misleading.

 

[kcrane]

So if one goes with Princess's view of the world, is the build year the start of the end of the build?

I had the same thought.

The invoice date seemed to come into it as well, but that doesn't help when there will often be staged payments.

To cover all bases should I describe it as:

Build Date (Beginning): August 2006
Build Date (End): October 2006
Final Invoice: October 2006
Commissioned: 2006
Model Year: 2007
Engine Hours: 460 (October 2011)

PS: It isn't for sale! (Though there are no V48's available to buy in the UK ATM, so outrageously high offers will be considered).

 

[jfm]

I had To cover all bases should I describe it as:

Build Date (Beginning): August 2006
Build Date (End): October 2006
Final Invoice: October 2006
Commissioned: 2006
Model Year: 2007
Engine Hours: 460 (October 2011)

No! Call it "2007"
Princess are plainly wrong on the concealment point imho. The full details as per your list above will always be available to a buyer on examination of HIN and ship's papers. As a buyer you need to sort out model years because specs vary according to model year. So it's much better to call your boat a "2007" imho

 

[henryf]

I think the year of first launch would be most people's expectation when asking a boat's age. If it's a later model year then I would use 2011 / 2012 as an example.

People want to know how long the boat has been on the water and possibly the model year to ascertain it's specification.

Henry

 

[kcrane]

No! Call it "2007"
Princess are plainly wrong on the concealment point imho. The full details as per your list above will always be available to a buyer on examination of HIN and ship's papers. As a buyer you need to sort out model years because specs vary according to model year. So it's much better to call your boat a "2007" imho

I was only kidding about the long list of dates

 

[EME]

I think the year of first launch would be most people's expectation when asking a boat's age. If it's a later model year then I would use 2011 / 2012 as an example.

Henry

I dont believe you wrote that! So all 911 models "registered" in 1997 are the same?

No .. specification ( Model year in boat terms) first. Purely because there may be be major hull/engine upgrades and boatbuilders think 'seasons'.

 

[henryf]

I dont believe you wrote that! So all 911 models "registered" in 1997 are the same?

No .. specification ( Model year in boat terms) first. Purely because there may be be major hull/engine upgrades and boatbuilders think 'seasons'.

I could potentially be taken to court for advertising a car first registered in 1997 as a 1998 car. 1997 (1998 model year) is how we should and do advertise cars.

I think it's very misleading to advertise a boat first launched and used in 1997 as a 1998 craft.

Henry

 

[EME]

I could potentially be taken to court for advertising a car first registered in 1997 as a 1998 car. 1997 (1998 model year) is how we should and do advertise cars.
I think it's very misleading to advertise a boat first launched and used in 1997 as a 1998 craft.
Henry

Yes, I take your your point. I had a look at a few boat models last night -- seeing if I could work out what is actually done ( almost impossible without the paperwork of course). The same 'rules' dont seem to apply. Obviously the concept of 'registering' is totally different but brokers seem to take either/or.

This site (Boats for sale) currently has 65 '2012' ( may of course be pre-build) boats for sale although the search term is clear as "Manufactured In".

Too much for my little brain .. although I will still continue to 'think' Model Year first and then first purchase.

 

[kcrane]

I could potentially be taken to court for advertising a car first registered in 1997 as a 1998 car. 1997 (1998 model year) is how we should and do advertise cars.

I think it's very misleading to advertise a boat first launched and used in 1997 as a 1998 craft.

Henry

It is just a convention, so long as you know the norm, there isn't a problem. For example, with cars, couldn't it be argued it is very misleading to advertise a car with its registration year when it may have been built quite a long time earlier? The car industry avoids mentioning build dates, yet Princess say that's the date they think is important. Neither are wrong or right, it is just a choice, the important thing is that everyone knows which dates are being used.

 

[jfm]

I could potentially be taken to court for advertising a car first registered in 1997 as a 1998 car. 1997 (1998 model year) is how we should and do advertise cars.

I think it's very misleading to advertise a boat first launched and used in 1997 as a 1998 craft.

Henry

The motor trade, if it suits them, builds cars whenever it likes and lets them sit in the rain or plod about on the high seas or dockside car parks in salty air and then all that history is concealed by the magic "first registration date". That date and sometimes the model year is all the buyer ever gets to know

If we were to apply car principles to boats all we'd get is, in effect, the handover date of the boat from dealer to first owner and no other date. That would be ridiculous

In fact the boat industry is much nicer to the customer becuase with a boat you get all the dates, 2 of them stamped on the transom and the rest in the paperwork. It is therefore not correct to suggest that the model year stated in an advertisement will mislead people.

My boat was built in 2010 and is 2011 m/year. It first hit the saltwater for seatrials on 7/12/10 but it was handed over by builder to customer on 4/3/11. During that gap they were still making the boat, including carpetting it and installing furniture. It was first registered at Cardiff in early April 2011. By my reckoning it is a "2011" when advertised for sale. I'm not sure whether it's a 2010 or 2011 by your reckoning, and I doubt you are either! Much easier if we stick to the convention of quoting model year in ads, and of course the prospective buyer will get all the dates when he examines the boat papers and HIN

 

[henryf]

A Porsche is no different to a boat in that I can tell the model year of the vehicle from the chassis (VIN) number. In fact I can tell the manufacturer, the plant where it was made, the model, the model year, sometimes the body type and the specific number of the car.

There are several build numbers secreted about the car which allow you to identify it as well.

Many cars also carry a manufacture date sticker these days.

In the early 1990s there were a number of car's sitting around so many "1992" or "1993" car's are actually earlier 1991 model cars. These days that tends not to happen in the UK due to cars being made to order.

You do see instances where imported cars are incorrectly registered, again the chassis number gives it away assuming the model type would not be possible for that year.

I think so long as you are clear and open in your description all is well.

Henry

 

[kcrane]

I'll beat jfm to it...

There are several build numbers secreted about the car which allow you to identify it as well...

You do see instances where imported cars are incorrectly registered, again the chassis number gives it away assuming the model type would not be possible for that year.

As a reference for the auto industry it doesn't sit that comfortably with the closing comment, which I do agree with:

I think so long as you are clear and open in your description all is well...

All in all the boat market seems to be above board relative to cars (pun intended)

 

[henryf]

I'm not sure what it is you think the motor industry is doing wrong or am I mis-reading your post?

Any incorrectly registered vehicles are down, in the main, to DVLA not the manufacturers. I've seen a lot of instances where a second hand imported car is given an age related plate based on when it came into the UK rather than when it was manufactured. But that's a DVLA error (usually).

The numbers I referred to secreted around the car are build numbers used internally. Nothing sinister, the car will be given a chassis number on the production line. You have to remember that a car build time is measured in minutes not weeks, so there are no delays anywhere.

I would be miffed to buy a 2010 boat which I later found out had been launched and first used in June 2009. People are suggesting that's standard practice in the boating world and to me that sounds fundamentally wrong. I can't believe that reputable boat dealers would act in this way.

Henry

 

[rafiki_]

Rafiki was built back end of 2002 and first commisioned in 2003. If I ever sell, this is how I will explain so there will be no misconceptions.

 

[jfm]

I would be miffed to buy a 2010 boat which I later found out had been launched and first used in June 2009.

So would I!

People are suggesting that's standard practice in the boating world

I don't think they are.
Industry standard is that N+1 model year boats do not leave the factory before August of year N, just like the world of cars. The earliest launch would be September

 

[ari]

I had the same thought.

The invoice date seemed to come into it as well, but that doesn't help when there will often be staged payments.

To cover all bases should I describe it as:

Build Date (Beginning): August 2006
Build Date (End): October 2006
Final Invoice: October 2006
Commissioned: 2006
Model Year: 2007
Engine Hours: 460 (October 2011)

PS: It isn't for sale! (Though there are no V48's available to buy in the UK ATM, so outrageously high offers will be considered).

Then it's very plainly a 2006 boat surely!?

It was made in 2006, sold in 2006, put into service in 2006, what possible justification could there be in referring to it as a 2007? It isn't!

Agree it might be a 2007 specification, but so what?

If you bought a car in 2006 that was built in 2006 and registered in 2006 but fitted special wheels and a bodykit that became standard specification in 2007 then you could argue it's a 2007 specification car. But if you tried to argue that it was a built 2007 car on the basis that it was a 2007 spec people would think you were having a laugh.

Sorry, I agree with Princess on this one, what you have there is clearly a 2006 boat, built, sold, invoiced and put into service.

 

[jfm]

If you bought a car in 2006 that was built in 2006 and registered in 2006 but fitted special wheels and a bodykit that became standard specification in 2007

That's not a fair analogy. KCrane's boat is not a 2006 m/year with accessories added that happened to become stnadard in 2007 m/year. His boat actually is a 2007 m/year

But if you tried to argue that it was a built 2007 car ...

He isn't/wouldn't. He would be quite clear to a prospective buyer that it was built in 2006 and he has said that all along

This argument is only about the "label" or "headline year" quoted in an ad. No-one is proposing the concealment of any facts.

As I said above ~75% of all Sq78 ever built (for example) and ~25% of all V48 have a build cycle that straddles 31 Dec, so if anyone argues that "build year" should be stated ought to say whether they mean the end or the start of the build period. Cars, in contrast, are built in days.

KCrane himself hit the nail on the head in post #12. All this is merely a convention and the debate is what is/ought to be the convention. In car circles (in the UK) the general convention is date of first reg.