Questions of a Newbie

[Distiller]

Hello everybody! Been reading the forum for a couple of weeks now, first posting of mine this is.

Let's see. Got some money lately, quitted my job Dec31, turned 40 last year, have no relatives, no real obligations. I want to leave the static life behind, selling my house, etc. One very tempting - or perhaps the most tempting - option is to buy a boat, live aboard and just "follow the breeze" (around the world perhaps?) if I'm no longer interested in a place. Seaborne drifter kind of.

But: I have basically no experience with boats, except for some freshwater sailing on a lake in the Austrian Saltzkamergut (Traunsea), where a friend of mine had a Bavaria thirty-something. Therefore a couple of questions, perhaps you could let me have your thoughts:

1 - If he does nothing else but learning to sail for the next couple of month, how long would it take on average for a layman to be able to go single/short-handed bluewater sailing without endangering himself and others?

2 - The boat. From the information I collected so far, I'd prefer something like the new Swans 461/52 or Baltics 47/50. Are those boats suited for single-handed sailing? Too big? Too small? I want *some* comfort and I'm 6ft4in. Are they suited for extended trips and heavy seas? Are there other boats that would suit? Oysters perhaps? But I somehow don't like them. Or French CNB's? I want to start as single-handed, but the boat should have liberal space for about 4 people. And I'm not immune against conceit, so if I drive a Porsche on land, I don't want to revert to a Toyota on the water, if you know what I mean.

3 - Any thoughts about seasonal hiring of a crew of one to help or for the first month until I can handle the boat? Or would that spoil my learning-curve?

4 - Assumed I would like to get back on land for a couple of month, for example doing an extensive tour of Argentina or Brasil or a place like that, is it practical to leave the boat at a local marina?

Thx for your answers.

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[Talbot]

Difficult to give you a responsible answer for how long it will take to get up to speed, because it will depend on how practical and sensible a person you are, and how quick you learn. The best approach would be one of the long courses that take you through what you need to know. A very good example is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.uk-sail.org.uk/ytlat1.html>http://www.uk-sail.org.uk/ytlat1.html</A>. But bear in mind that this will really only be the start of your learning curve. It might be better to discuss your needs and level of expertise directly with UKSA

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[Nat]

I have recently done as you & although having a few small river cruisers in the past 16' ect skippering a large cruiser is a different kettle of fish. I studied the secondhand boat market for some 4 months viewing many different vessels of various sizes from 24' to 44' I came to the conclusion anything over 34' would
be difficult for someone of little experience to handle on their own its not so much the cruising but the mooring thats the problem, I finished up buying a widebeam
Bayliner 2655 6 berth american spec sportsfisher overall lengh 31' as a starter
boat with the intention of cutting my teeth on it for a year and then upgrading
to a Sealine 36 or similar, My boats in Campormor Costa Blanco & already I have been over to Ibiza in it some 120 nautical miles each way without mishap,
How I see it. Its better to walk before you can run, a mooring slip with 40-50 ft boat will do a lot of damage where a smaller boat can be more forgiving both damage and money wise. Also many experienced boat owners I meet say you
need crew 40' or over. As one novice to another this would be my advice.
Good luck. Nat


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[Distiller]

@ Talbot:
Very good link - thx! Although I'm not British, this is definitely a very interesting outfit. I estimated about six month of intense training, all in all the better part of 2004. If I do pursue that liveaboard/cruising option that timetable would be quite suiting, as having a boat built would take well into 2005.

@ Nat:
I've seen quite some information by now, to be well aware of the difficulties encountered by newcomers with "big" boats. I've been to the Dusseldorf Boat Show about a week ago and checked out the boats and I think I simply wouldn't feel good on a boat smaller than 50ft. I rather hire some guy/girl to help me than buy a smaller boat. I want to be able to go singlehanded if I choose, because that's my basic idea - not being dependent on other people, so my minimal length is propably at the same time the maximum realisticly handleable length.

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[Trevethan]

I would suggest you forget about the living aboard bit for say six months. The first thing you need is a bit of experience on the water -- so start out doing you local equivalent of RYA day and coastal skipper.

That will then give you an appreciation of whether its the life for you and what size boat you think you'll be able to handle.

You say 50 feet is the minimum -- that is a very large boat to be handling yourself when mooring -- and frequently there aren't others to around to take lines etc.

My wife and I live more than happily on a 44 footer -- in fact for the past year we have not really used half the vessel as we have been fitting out the salon.

The life style is wonderful -- my wife had no sailing experience at all... no experience of boats to tell the truth, and she has learned a lot.

If I were yoiu I'd tend to steer clear of new boats. If I were in your shoes, I'd buy an older well known boat around 30' to start with and learn to handle her. learn what you need and what your can do without -- living on a boat is a lot to do with doing without -- but the benefits are worth it.

At that point make your choice -- is the life for you?
You'll learn a lot, have fun and be in a place to make an informed decision.

Good luck!!

Nick




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[Distiller]

When I said I have no experience with boats I didn't say I have no experience on the water, fresh water only to admit. I have quite extensive white water rafting and additionally faltboat experience from extended tours in Canada. Well, I know that is not compareable to ocean sailing, but I like being around and in the water - fresh and salty - so I can very well imagine to live on a boat, actually that thought is quite exciting to me. I should find out during one of those UKSA courses if I really like it and fly to Kronoby during that time to get things going. I don't really care about living in a house full of antiques, and over the years I perfected carry-on air/land travelling. I mean, there's not much you can't buy locally! (Except custom made suits and shoes if things get more formal, but those I had me FedEx'd before already, to keep me streamlined while on the road).

I'm well aware that 50ft is large for a single person to handle, but as said before, I rather hire somebody, than go for a smaller boat. And I do by no means plan to become a floating hermite, I just want to have the option doing it all alone if I feel like or need to.
And used boats - nay, if I really do follow that liveaboard idea I want something built exactly to my wishes/specs and something nobody else had his hands on before. Might sound crazy to you more experienced folks, but that's the way it is.

Thx for your input btw!

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[ongolo]

I would recomment you get the book SHRIMPY" and read it which shows what a person with NO skill or knowledge can achieve.

Then I would recommend that you inform yourself how the pilot schooners were sailed single handedly by the apprentice after the pilot was transferred.

The first shows an absolutely low level low skill and the second large boat and very skilled sailor even though he was still called an apprentice.

No matter what gadgets for reefing etc you may find on the most modern boat, when they go wrong, the largest sail one man can handle (reef/hoist/carry about) is about 50square meter and that should be a consideration.

regards ongolo




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[alorwin]

I’m glad we’re not the only others in the world that have gone crackers and want to “drift” around!

We were in the same position as you about 19 months ago. We are also intending to live aboard and do some fairly intensive cruising – i.e. everywhere that has more than a puddle!

With regards to your lack of experience, don’t worry! My partner and I had no experience of sailing (although he is a fisherman) until 17 months ago. Since then we have taken an RYA Competent Crew course via the RYA as this give you a taste and a fairly good idea of the sailing life, and a year after that we have completed our Day Skipper theory and Day Skipper Practical courses. Once you’ve got these you can send off for an International Certificate of Competence, which you will need if you intend to sail out of the UK. The ICC is basically your “driving license” with the UK being one of the very few countries that require nothing license wise.

With regard the time scale, I would say it really depends how much time you have to spend on it. The Comp Crew lasts 5 days on board a yacht, the Day Skipper Theory has both intensive and long distance learning (our option), with the intensive taking 5 days also. If you want to go intensive bear in mind there is a huge amount of information to take in and it really is life depending stuff so make sure you are a person who can absorb quickly! We’re glad we did distance learning. The Day Skipper Practical (which you DO need the Theory bit for as you’re expected to do the navigation) lasts 5 day. Your ICC will take about 2-3 weeks to come back form the RYA. Even now, it is still very daunting, but we’re going to small and get braver as we go along!

Boat wise, and this is the bit you always think about first as we did, is really dependent upon what you want. For a single hander, I would say to do at least your Comp Crew course so you know just how much there really is to do on a boat. I don’t mean this in a condescending way but there is a lot! My partner and I are looking to buy something between 33 and 45 feet, to sail between us, but also to single hand during watches. When looking at your boat, make sure your not going for a Toyota that looks like a porshe but doesn’t have the grunt! That is, a lot of boats make wonderful “gin palaces” but probably wouldn’t get you very far offshore in a blow!

Having said that, if your budget is larger, then there are some cracking yachts out there that look and sail well. We’re going for something with a full or long fin keel, as they seem to have more stability. Although I’m clued up on yachts of 33-45 (bear in mind this is just theory as no boat till next month) if you wanted to pick my brains on any boats, I don’t mind at all! Also, I have an extensive list of brokers in the UK and Europe that has taken 9 months to collate that I am more than willing to share (I wish someone has offered this to me!) and these brokers sell more up-market yachts (I drive a corsa but I’m hoping for more of a BMW for a boat, if not a porshe!).

Therefore, although I have a lot of theory and as yet no yacht – though not from lack of trying- I am more than willing to share my little pool of knowledge with you as I know it is a very daunting world of boat buying! I’m afraid the deeper into buying a boat you get, the more you realise you don’t know! It’s worth persisting with though, as we would have bought something totally unsuitable within the first 3 months!

Hope that has helped and email me if you want, no worries!


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[timevans2000]

This might not be what you want to hear, but I am going to say it anyway.

If you go out and buy a 50 ft boat it will be a serious mistake.

You need experience of a wide range of conditions and boats to realise what kind of boat suits you and what does not. If you buy the first one that looks nice, sure as hell it will prove to be the wrong one!

If I was in your position, I would buy a smaller boat like a Westerley Centaur (26ft) and do some practical sailing courses. Get on the water yourself and learn the ropes. You can bang this boat into a few harbour walls and not bother too much about the damage as it has only coat you £10 or £12k. Better to learn on something manageable.

If you go out and buy something at 50 ft, you will be reliant on crew and you will scare yourself shitless!

You might not think it flashy enough in a 26 ft boat but you will look like a right Charlie miss handling a 50 ft boat and eveybody will know you cant sail!

I would cruise the local waters, where ever you intend to keep her, for the first season, and if things go well, spend you second season venturing abroad. If you still like it, by then you should have some pretty good clues to what boat would suit you

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[Trevethan]

The guy seems to have his own, strongly-held views -- I made much the same point as you, but he roundly dismissed most of it -- fair enough.

The one thing that I did find rather amusing was that he wanted a boat built to his own specs which no one else had had their hands on --

To my mind, I think that you can only really know what you need once you have tried various things -- Having lived a year, more or less our boat now, I am not sure we would have bought her -- we have had to make quite a few changes and she is still not exactly as we want her, and I doubt she ever will be, but we are close enough now I think... leastways will be with the forward heads re-done, the new galley counter tops, an adjustable table in the pilot house, a new shower installed and all the wood etc that we have bought and not used yet out of the saloon....

I have found living aboard and spending weekends or a week or two in the summer are very different --


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[timevans2000]

I agree. If you have no experience of what works for you personally in a boat design, what on earth would you specify in a new boat. I am sure it would be completely different once you have had the benefit of a couple of years of full-time sailing.

I am currently refitting a Prout Cat for a 14 month cruise. You are correct about the requirements for permanent live aboard being quite different to weekend sailing.

We have fitted a Duogen, fridge freezer and water maker. Non of these being a priority for the weekend sailor

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[BrendanChandler]

In my humble opinion,
Learning basic sailing takes very little time.
Learning what to do when it all goes wrong takes experience which takes time.
Learning to fix things (and Bluewater cruising has been defined as maintaining your boat in lots of exotic locations) takes a lot of time, unless you already know how to fix things.

Brendan

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http://hometown.aol.co.uk/brendanchandler/index.html

 

[Anonymous]

I think that if you go to your nearest sailing school and tell them you want a full one day's introduction to sailing (alone, one to one, with an instructor) in conditions of at wind force 4 or 5 you will come back much better informed and having had a really nice day out. Probably not very expensive, either.

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[charles_reed]

reading the thread

I get the impression that you're about to set yourself up for a very educative and expensive experience (if you have the cash).

It would be most interesting and enlightening for you to outline for the forum your experiences and conclusions in, say 2 or 3 years, time.

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[wpsalm]

Go for it....

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[heerenleed]

quite right

"You might not think it flashy enough in a 26 ft boat but you will look like a right Charlie miss handling a 50 ft boat and eveybody will know you cant sail!"

when we went out for the first week of sailing with our actual boat, a 48 footer, after having had a 35-footer (which isn't that small either) I knew exactly what people would have thought if things went wrong. That is, I know what I would have thought, if I would have seen someone sailing a large boat who was obviously unable to do so: "biggest boat, biggest idiot..."
and mind you, if people se a large boat coming into port, they will watch it closely.

so you are quite right: get to know the ropes in something you can handle and have fun doing so, rather than scaring the wits out of you with something way above your skills. It will very likely put you off doing it.


<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by heerenleed on 23/02/2004 15:53 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[heerenleed]

equipment for liveaboards

could you tell us already how your duogen performs? and what about your watermaker. which brand? does it live up to your expectations?

we have a fridge and a separate freezer, lots of other gadgets that make living aboard more comfortable, and at some stage will need to add more generation capacity.

also, the genset (oldish) died last year, I'm postponing any decisions untill I know what I want, and, of course, till I know what would work for us.

thank you for any information

cheers



<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by heerenleed on 23/02/2004 16:01 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: equipment for liveaboards

I have fitted the Duogen but not launched the boat for the season yet. It works well in wind mode, developing lots of amps. It is pretty quiet when you are in the cockpit but like all wind generators, you can hear the noise transmitted through the hull when in bed!

It is very well made and cant fault it. It was blowing a good breeze this weekend and I was watching it put upto 11 amps in in the gusts before the regulator cut in and dumped the excess amps to the heat sinks.

I tested the watermaker at the end of last season prior to removing it ashore for the winter. It produced 1.5 gallons per hour at about 4 amps. The unit was purchased second hand for £500. It is a PUR 40. I hope to run it on my cruise this year when we have spare power available. Should be quite often if I have my sums right. We also have 133 watts of solar power that was pushing out over 5 amps yesterday even though they are flat on the coachroof in a low sun angle.

I was in our local marine electronics shop on Saturday. They had a nice little 3 kva genny sat on the floor. It weighed 65 kg in a accoustic box. Looks like a good option until you hear the price. £5000. The duogen and panels start making a lot of sense when you realise that they cost less than half as much and dont use any fuel.

It probably depended on what kind of boat you sail and space available. We are weight sensitive so the 46 kg total weight of the Duogen/solar panels saves quite a bit over generator and fuel. Also we wont run the engine for charging.

The fridge is uses a water cooled evaporator so is a little more efficient than the air cooled type too

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[heerenleed]

Re: equipment for liveaboards

Thank you, That was very comprehensive.
We have a Nicholson 48, so weight is not really an issue. But space always is and will be, not that we have a shortage of it, but you can only use your space available once.

We had a good look at the Duogen last sunday at the Amsterdam boat show and it looked an interesting piece of kit.

We are pretty power hungry, using an air-cooled fridge and a water-cooled freezer, a large computer and lots of light. But the, we live aboard Heerenleed permanently and are hooked-up to the 230V network whenever not moving, which is virtually all week days except holidays.

I do need to prepare for the day we can slip the mooring lines forgood (and thus slip what we call the German mooring line (=power cable)). Solar power is on my wish list, and so is wind power. I am very much tempted by the AirX models but they are unacceptably noisy. They can sound like a helicopter taking off from your aft deck in a blow. It seems the newest model is quieter, but I want to wait and hear first. The duogen seems quite efficient and offers the water mode which seems attractive. That's why I try to get information from users.

cheers


<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands

 

[Anonymous]

Re: equipment for liveaboards

Maybe I've lost the plot about Duogens.... they either generate from a wind turbine or from a water turbine, driven by boat's motion through water. If there is enough wind to be sailing fast enough (under canvas) to generate much power from the Duogen in the water mode, surely a lighter, cheaper windgen would also have been giving a similar power? If the movement is due to motoring, then the output of a decent alternator and controller - around 100A - is vastly greater than the Duogen output anyway. Maybe they come into their own on a really long trans-ocean run, with a light wind astern, and full canvas as long as a big fish doesn't take a fancy to the turbine!?

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