Questions from a first time buyer.

[mel80]

Hello,

I am, at the moment, considering purchasing my first cruising boat (previously I've only had dinghies). I have spotted a potential boat and had a quick look around. Whilst doing so, I spotted a number of things that may or may not be an issue. As I am new to boat ownership, I thought I'd ask for some more experienced opinions. The boat is a 27ft long keeled GRP ketch.

1. In addition to the (iron?) ballast keel, there is a quantity of loose internal lead ballast (in the form of 15?kg weights). At present these are unsecured. How much of a problem would people consider this to be, and how easy would it be to secure them (preferably not permenantly)?

2. One of the cockpit lockers also opens directly into the cabin. Could this be a flooding risk?

3. The bowsprit has been shortened, which I think looks ugly, and limits the sail options somewhat. I would probably put a new bowsprit in (of about 4ft). The only problem with this is that there are no bowsprit shrouds or fittings to attach them (there is, of course a bobstay). How important are these for a boat of that size, and how easy would it be to fit a shroud plate to a GRP hull?

I know it's difficult to answer without seeing the boat, and obviously I'll get a full survey before buying, but any opinions would be gratefully recieved.

Thanks.

 

[ailsaboat]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

1, Loose ballast would worry me, the thought of 15 kg missiles flying around in the event of a knockdown etc is scary.

2. I suppose it depends on whether the locker lid can be securely locked. Also I would have thought a security risk. If you can get into the cabin by opening a cockpit locker???

3. If you think the bowsprit has been shortened, then pressumably it never had side shrouds (i would have thought you would see evidence on the hull)
so it shouldn't need them if you restore it to it's original length.

 

[Sailorsam101]

I've never come across a yacht that was designed with loose ballast. Was it desinged this way? If not why is it in there?

The other thing that sounds an alarm is a long keel. My first yacht had a long keel and while a fantastic sail it was and still is a bitch to handle in a marina.

You might like to look for something a little more conventional and eaiser to handle.

if the bowsprit has been shortned it sounds like this boat has had some mods done to it. Why has it changed form standard...?

Also where are you going to keep her. Bowsprits are a pain in a crowded marina.

I get asked all the time what is the best type of yacht to buy as i'm an instructor. I always say to firstly look at ther accomadation requirements first. My first yacht was great but it was too small inside and did not have any double berths. My lady was not amused. Remeber where and who you sail with may change over the years so if you get good accom inside its a basis for a long and happy freindship.

Good Luck

 

[mel80]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

1. Yes, that is a big concern to me. I got the impression that the current owner didn't do a lot of serious sailing, and he didn't seem worried by it. The bilge is pretty deep, so I reckon that the ballast would be fine if the boat only went over to 90 degrees but I guess it's always best to consider the worst case senario...

2. Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

3. True, but the owner did suggest that one of the reasons for shortening the bowsprit was that he was worried by the loading on it. I don't imagine that losing the bowsprit would be catastrophic as there is a strong inner stay, but it would be a concern to me.

 

[mel80]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never come across a yacht that was designed with loose ballast. Was it desinged this way? If not why is it in there?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, somthing to ask the owner perhaps.

[ QUOTE ]

The other thing that sounds an alarm is a long keel. My first yacht had a long keel and while a fantastic sail it was and still is a bitch to handle in a marina.


Also where are you going to keep her. Bowsprits are a pain in a crowded marina.



[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I prefer the long keel over a fin keel, (having sailed both) because I find them better cruising boats. Also, I live on the E coast of Scotland, so crowded marinas aren't really going to be an issue. The boat will either be on a mooring, or in a harbour.

Lots of useful advice. Thanks

 

[SimonD]

Don't want to cast aspertions at your prospective purchase, but how does it sail? Doesn't sound like the sort of fast, handy craft that would appeal to an ex-dinghy sailor. There are plenty of, dare I say, more conventional cruisers that might appeal better to someone used to tweaking the rig and surfing off waves etc.

 

[bluedragon]

The loose ballast might be to correct fore and aft trim?? You need to ask. The lockers on many olders yachts would allow water to enter the cabin if not properly secured...not necessarily a problem...just be aware of it.

 

[simonfraser]

buy a boat that's easy to sell, you're bound to change your mind later

the one you are looking at might be a bit "odd" ???

keep the boat simple and light, that way it is more likely to sail well without too many problems

 

[Avocet]

Avocet had various lumps of lead loose in the bilges when we got her. Like you, I didn't think it was that good an idea. In our case, they were to correct side-to-side trim due to someone having decided to put the water tank on the same side as the diesel tank! For our first season, we just drilled a hole in each weight and put a big bolt through it and the nearest convenient bulkhead - we were lucky as there were plenty of holes in all of them! After we moved the water tank and added various other bits and pieces, we tried the boat without them and it was fine - floated nicely to her marks so we left them out permanently.

As far as long-keelers in marinas go, it's not all bad news! True, Avocet never goes astern in the same direction twice, but when approaching a windward pontoon, we find that we tend to get a few extra seconds to step ashore with the lines before the boat falls away compared to most fin keelers!

Can't help on the bowsprit though!

 

[mel80]

Hello,

Thanks for the replys everyone; you've all been really helpful.

I should probably have made it clearer that, although I've only owned dinghies before, I've got a fair number of miles under my belt on larger boats. So, in terms of the hull design and rig, I have a pretty good idea of what I want, and am happy with the boat I'm looking at.

Whats new to me is the ownership part, and all that goes along with it! Anyway, you've given me plenty to think about, and some good questions to ask the owner. We're taking her for a test sail tomorrow...

Thanks again.

 

[bedouin]

Don't forget - it is a buyers market at the moment. Unless you are after something very unusual there are lots of boats out there to choose from.

If you aren't 100% happy then just walk away - there will be another like it along in a minute

 

[ColinHuggins]

Of course loose ballast rang alarms, but I'm disappointed that 'long keel' is an issue -Twister Ken will eat you for breakfast!

Does no-one twitch at the 27ft + ketch-rigged + bowsprit combo? That really sounds like, say, an Eventide or similar solid design with add-ons to make it sail.

PLEASE identify the class/make/builder and put us out of our misery!

(You'll get more erudite feedback that way.)

 

[mel80]

[ QUOTE ]

PLEASE identify the class/make/builder and put us out of our misery!


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, sorry; She's a windjammer 24. Not sure of the builder, but they aren't common by any means. As far as I know, there were only ever 6 built. Lovely looking hulls with a high sheer and a very traditional feel.

We took her for a quick spin yesterday. She sails nicely, and although a little tricky to handle under power, is perfectly acceptable for maneuvering into pontoon berths.

The news on the ballast is more surprising. It turns out that all of it is is held in by nothing more than gravity! It turns out that the owner bought the boat as a bare moulding, and fitted her out himself (which may explain unsecured ballast). As far as I could tell, he restricted himself almost entirely to the Forth, and so wasn't worried about the ballast. I would like to sail further afield, and would be!

He has done a lot of work and modification to the boat (generally to a very high standard) including the addition of 3ft of hull, which sounds odd, but gives her a much more pleasing shape and a fair bit of extra locker space. He also added the small mizzen, which probably doesn't add much drive, but could be useful for balance.

Re-reading what I've written, I can imagine that you are visualising a real hodge podge kind of boat that we should run a mile from, but she looks beautiful, sails well, has been maintained to a high standard, and has a really nice feel to her.

Also, on the practical side she has a sound and powerful engine and is cheap. The cheapness is big consideration because we could easily set aside a fair bit of extra money for all the jobs that we would want to bring her up to standard.

Incidently, we went to see another boat of the same design yesterday, which had far less done to it. The owner had also owned the boat from the moulding, but had secured the ballast in place with a resin mix. This seems like a good option to me. Does anyone know any more about such a procedure, or have any idea of costs?

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

[machurley22]

If it's one of these

then there was a thread on here about them (in May of this year I think) but I can't find it at the moment.

 

[mel80]

Not just "one of these" but the very same boat! It's a slightly old photo, the bowsprit is now shorter and there's also small mizzen. She's actualy a yawl (just); not a ketch as I said earlier. Hard to believe that the transom used to be where the rudder post is now, isn't it?

 

[Evadne]

A pretty boat indeed. I always think a boat with a nice sheer looks like she is smiling. I would add my approval to the pro long keel advice as well, tho' not wanting to re-open an old debate on these fora: I've only owned one keel boat, and she has a whole keel as well. She goes forwards or sideways under power and is entirely predictable. Bloody minded and intractable at times, but predictable.
Following on from your questions of what to look out for, based on the things I found the previous owner had lived with: some sort of gas bottle locker, if you use calor is something that can be missed off a home completion. Also check over the engine installation, esp. the existence of a primary filter and a tank drain. And sound insulation.
Otherwise I hope you enjoy the wonderful world of boat ownership.

 

[mel80]

Cheers, sounds like good advice. I'm happy with the gas locker arrangement. The engine looks well cared for but I'll check out those specifics that you mentioned.

You can probably tell that I really like the boat, but I am doing my best to be pragmatic about it!

The one thing that really needs to be done is the resining in of the ballast. Presumably we'll need epoxy and some sort of additive (the other guy we spoke to used sand). I'm going to try and find out the costs associated with this, and if practical then I think we'll go ahead with a survey.

 

[Avocet]

Be really careful about mixing large volumes of resin and "casting" them into a confined space. With polyester resin, the amount of heat generated can be enough to start a fire! Don't know what epoxies are like though. I believe you can buy casting resins. Have a look on the CFS website.

 

[bilbobaggins]

You should certainly have your ballast fixed securely. You'll only find yourself in one set of overfalls, or in a lumpy wind-over-tide leftover sea, to realise for yourself that you *need* fixed ballast.

It sounds as though the owner has made several modifications, then several more to address handling issues that the first set introduced. Most bowsprits introduce large 'lateral' as well as 'up' loads - that's why all-carbon is used on the likes of J-109s . Note that the hull must also be very well beefed up to carry the unstayed loads.

A modest bowsprit can often carry a useful - and easily-handled - cruising chute. A mizzen sail can help with balancing a reduced sail plan in a blow, and certain 'John Goode' style close quarters manoeuvering - but does little to enhance boat speed.

Have a close look inside at where the rigging loads are carried into the hull. The structure would, most probably, not have been designed to carry the loads of a mizzen mast. Look for signs of damage, overload, and amateur repair. And don't assume that a blob of epoxy 'bog' and some woven roving covering the shroud plates means that what you see is necessarily up to the job.

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[machurley22]

Found that other thread but it's not very informative.

Do you know who the designer was? It's not a design that was ever marketed by Hunter Boats AFAIK though I suppose it could have been moulded by them.

Amazed that you have also found another one to look at! I presume it doesn't have the hull extension. Does it have the bowsprit, cutter rig and mizzen?

The one thing which would concern me (from a re-sale perspective if nothing else) is that it has been the subject of such major modifications, presumably in an attempt to cure perceived handling shortcomings. If you are happy with her current sailing performance then I suppose this has been a success. What kind of conditions did you have for your sail?