Questions about Pelagic tiller pilot system

[eddystone]

Just wondered if anyone had bought this direct from USA, how much you had to pay in taxes/customs/import duty and at what point was it charged? Or is it easier to use the EU (Dutch?) distributer bearing in mind many will not send goods to UK

Second question - the Pelagic has an NMEA 0183 input for wind data. My NASA wireless wind instrument has an NMEA 0183 output to the display unit - how would you split this to also feed a pelagic?

 

[robmcg]

Can't help with your first question, but would be interested in others responses as that system is on my 'radar' so to speak.

Second question - to do it properly, you should install an nmea splitter or buffer to prevent signal degradation. Something like

NBF-3

Others are available at various price points depending on your budget.

 

[tillergirl]

A YakMUX will work and cheaper. NMEA & SeaTalk1 converters by Yakbitz

I have one and it is reliable.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I bought my original tiller actuator from Pelagic USA (before now importing a box of them from Wuxi Hongba in China).

VAT is 20%, I think you also pay about 2½% import duty and probably some FedEx fees. Came to about £60 on my $500 tiller actuator from Pelagic in 2019.

The actuator from PC Nautic in Holland is the same as Pelagic's, but the control unit is not - I believe it's based on the open source PyPilot and is probably therefore more sophisticated.

 

[eddystone]

The alternative I was considering is the Raymarine Evo 1000 tiller version but as I understand it to fit into my existing "system" (i.e. random collection of self standing units) this needs:

a) an ST hub (just for the autopilot as can't see any benefit in connecting existing Raymarine log (under-reads) and depth
b) NMEA 0183 splitter to take signal from NASA wind
c) NMEA 0183 - 2K converter

Which would add a lot of ££££ to the price of the Evo

 

[KompetentKrew]

Find a secondhand Raymarine SmartPilot, which should integrate with older Raymarine instruments / transducers?

That's what I'm using with my Pelagic / Wx Hongba actuator. I have the SmartPilot S1.

 

[eddystone]

I bought my original tiller actuator from Pelagic USA (before now importing a box of them from Wuxi Hongba in China).

VAT is 20%, I think you also pay about 2½% import duty and probably some FedEx fees. Came to about £60 on my $500 tiller actuator from Pelagic in 2019.

The actuator from PC Nautic in Holland is the same as Pelagic's, but the control unit is not - I believe it's based on the open source PyPilot and is probably therefore more sophisticated.

I looked at PC Nautic website. I was interested in the photos of the Raymarine ST4000 replacement kit because the ram looks the same as the one on my pre-ST Autohelm 2000 suggesting the Pelagic/PC Nautic one might slot in without major adjustment. Their complete kit is cheaper than Pelagic given current exchange rates.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I'm not sure how much you've seen of what I've written before on this. I've got about 5000 words of notes that I composed intending to make a big info dump post here, so PM me if you'd like the draft copy. It has links to photos and specifications and stuff.

The ram used by both Pelagic (original) and PC Nautic is made by Wuxi Hongba in China - it's their model HB-DJ809, which is available in various lengths and gear ratios. The Pelagic one is rated to 200N and I'd guess all the PC Nautic ones are too.

These rams are sold to industry for various purposes, so if you wanted one that coped with a heavier load (more than 200N) then you could order one in a different gear ratio - because it's the same motor inside it would travel more slowly, probably too slowly to use as an autopilot.

The Pelagic ram is the exact same length as the Raymarine Q047 tiller pilot and I believe so is the PC Nautic one that they market as a Raymarine replacement. For some reason PC Nautic have chosen a 5cm longer unit for their PyPilot autopilot - I don't see much advantage to this; I think it's much more useful to chose the same length and just be able to drop it in.

However, the bare units shipped from China require the addition of a bracket so that we can use them as a tiller pilot - absent in the bottom drive in this photo; the one supplied by Pelagic is good quality (see this pic) and PC Nautic's does not look as good.

The bracket does need to be fairly robust, and I did manage to bend the pin on my Pelagic one going through Ushant at the wrong state of tide, but this is easily replaced (just turn down a 12mm or 13mm stainless bolt). I subsequently crossed Biscay with it and it steered for about 24 hours steady, on a beam reach in 20 - 30 knots of wind.

Pelagic now offer also a heavy duty ram - I haven't looked into it, but I've heard that this may be sourced from a UK supplier. Wx Hongba make some other models that look similar, but I guess the Pelagic heavy duty ram may be better quality - I don't know. However the standard HB-DJ809 ram offered by both Pelagic and PC Nautic is surely adequate for most boats below (say) 35'. My boat is 40', albeit with a fin keel and spade or balanced rudder and the standard ram copes fine. It can start to get a bit overwhelmed if you're not properly reefed and experiencing gusts in excess of 35 knots.

At its heart the ram is driven by a small 12v electric motor, so any motor will do and the only thing you would have to be concerned about, if you were considering some other drive, is how much power it draws. I don't recall for sure, so check the specs if this is important, but I think the HB-DJ809 is rated to draw a maximum of 5A and the Raymarine SmartPilot is specced to provide 6A, whereas the smallest Raymarine Evo offers 7A. But this isn't important if you're buying a complete kit from either supplier.

 

[rowlock]

I imported a Pelagic 4 years ago. 20% VAT was charged on entry into the UK and the carrier charged handling fees.

Following a failed update to address an operating issue it was necessary to return the cockpit and power head units to Pelagic and a second and third return when the fixes did not work and a replacement unit was incorrectly assembled. Each time the cost of return was at my expense and each time the rather stupid women in their administration department incorrectly completed the custom declarations causing further VAT and import fees.

I recently contacted PC Nautic who without provocation offered to ship minus European VAT by carrier, with VaAT to be paid at the UK boarder. The import problems of a couple of years ago appear to be history.

Some thing to bear in mind if you intend to mount an above deck tiller steer system. Raymarine Evo unlike the Pelagic and I think PC Nautic requires an external rudder position sensor and the Raymarine offering is not suitable for use above deck. When pressed Raymarine had no answer to this omission.

Most of K K's post concurs with my experience however the HB-DJ809 actuator is available in many guises, one of which includes an internal position sensor. I discovered this when I bought a couple of back up units for the Pelagic. Something I read while researching the Dutch system leads me to understand that the PC Nautic unit uses a position sensor version actuator. Any light that can be cast on this and experience of the PC Nautic gear would be appreciated as I'm just about to order.

 

[Wandering Star]

I’ve got the Pelagic ram - where can I purchase just the bracket from? Being a technical nincompoop, once I source the bracket, I’m presuming the ram will then be a drop in replacement for my ST4000+ ram using the same ST4000+ eleckrickery?

 

[Daverw]

Just to add re the remote rudder sensor for use with raymarine evo, I actually have one fitted below deck operated via stainless cable pull around tiller top mount and leading via top of transom to standard rudder sensor, has now work perfectly for last 4 years. So can be done with a little ingenuit.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Some thing to bear in mind if you intend to mount an above deck tiller steer system. Raymarine Evo unlike the Pelagic and I think PC Nautic requires an external rudder position sensor and the Raymarine offering is not suitable for use above deck. When pressed Raymarine had no answer to this omission.

The Raymarine Evo doesn't require it - the position sensor is optional, at least according to the manual. It should improve performance, but the Evo will work fine without it.

The official Raymarine M81105 position sensor appears to be just a potentiometer, wired like this. I suspect it's just 5kΩ pot, limited to the middle third of its travel, or 10kΩ and limited to a sixth of its full travel. With the rudder fully to port there remains 1.6kΩ resistance between red and blue, and 3.2kΩ blue to green; vice versa with the rudder hard to starboard. I think it can be wired either way around and the Raymarine controller will recognise it.

My batch of HB-DJ809s came supplied with 10kΩ potentiometers, which give resistance readings from 0Ω to 10kΩ corresponding to the extension of the actuator arm. It didn't occur to me until after to ask whether these can be supplied with a different value of pot, but I don;'t think this is important - the Evo has a calibration process when setting it up, see "dockside setup" in the P70 manual. It's also possible to replace the HB-DJ809's pot with a 1kΩ or 2kΩ one - the pot is a clone of the Bourns 3590S-2-103L, available on eBay and AliExpress for £1 to £3 each - just search those sites for "3590s". AndreasW29 provides a PDF guide to replacing the pot on his GitHub.

I would assume (but don't know) that all PC Nautic's actuators have the potentiometer option fitted - if Wx Hongba charge for the upgrade then it's certainly not very expensive.

PC Nautic offer an HB-DJ809 capable of giving rudder feedback to a Raymarine Evo - it comes with a separate little box, and I assume that simply has a couple of resistors inside it, so that there remains 1kΩ or 2kΩ resistance when the ram is fully retracted or extended. This kit also comes provided with a little 9v battery and I couldn't initially figure out what this is for - then I realised that you can't move the ram's position using the P90 control head during the Dockside Calibration. You're supposed to move the helm during this process, then press the button for hard port, centred and hard starboard - I assume that instead you use the battery, or any 12v source, to hotwire the ram, moving it between fully retracted and fully extended and pressing the button at each position. Then you remove the battery and reconnect the ram so the Evo can power it again.

I'm planning to fit an Evo and use a Wx Hongba ram in this way, but I haven't yet fully tested it.

Video of actuators being tested: www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCyoPzWvTr4

Again, DM me for a copy of my full draft notes.

The HB-DJ809 is also available with a different position sensor - a hall effect sensor, which sends a pulse for every 1cm (or whatever) of travel. This should be less prone to wear than a resistor, but it would be necessary to construct a circuit to do collate the pulses and do something useful with them.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I’ve got the Pelagic ram - where can I purchase just the bracket from?

If you mean this one then, as I said above, the one from Pelagic is the best one. I've been unable to find an alternative that's as good.

If you ordered the actuator without the bracket then have one made by a local fabricator, or use search terms like "robotic actuator bracket" or "actuator arm bracket".

 

[Wandering Star]

If you mean this one then, as I said above, the one from Pelagic is the best one. I've been unable to find an alternative that's as good.

If you ordered the actuator without the bracket then have one made by a local fabricator, or use search terms like "robotic actuator bracket" or "actuator arm bracket".

Yep, that’s the one! I actually bought the actuator from a fellow forumite not realising it didn’t have the bracket attached! Will Pelagic supply just a bracket? Do you know how much? I’d rather purchase a “ready to go” one than faff around having a bespoke one fabricated locally. Thanks for your help.

 

[eddystone]

One thing I noticed is that Pelagic offer a remote control as an accessory which adds some additional functions - can't see that on PC Nautic offering.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Yep, that’s the one! I actually bought the actuator from a fellow forumite not realising it didn’t have the bracket attached! Will Pelagic supply just a bracket? Do you know how much? I’d rather purchase a “ready to go” one than faff around having a bespoke one fabricated locally. Thanks for your help.

I suggest you contact them. Actually, I think they've changed the style of their bracket - compare the photo on this page with the ones on their Accessories and spare parts page; the newer one requires the actuator to be mounted with the motor on the top, which is an orientation I find less pleasing.

 

[Wandering Star]

Thanks KK. The thread prompted me to research a little further and it appears PC Nautic have a new design of bracket for €45 plus presumably shipping & VAT. https://pcnautic.nl/nl/autopilot/bracket-and-pin-detail, I think this may be the solution for me! Also found a few earlier threads on the Pelagic which you’d provided helpful posts too - so thanks again!

 

[Daydream believer]

A friend of mine bought a dutch equivalent for the raymarine ev100. ( Keep forgetting the manufacturer but he says they are very helpfull) I do not think it is the Pelagic. He says it works very well, is cheaper, faster, quieter, more power & a drop in replacement for the raymarine one.. I am on my second ev 100 ram & i am far from impressed. ery noisy as well.

 

[rowlock]

Re the Evo and rudder sensor "requirement". I was simple relaying what the nice people at Raymarine told me. They we so keen the installation include a sensor that they offered to throw one into the package for free! Apparently the Evo can work without but may throw it's toys out of the pram without. Not much fun if it causes a gybe at speed with the kit up.

 

[kwb78]

PC Nautic offer an HB-DJ809 capable of giving rudder feedback to a Raymarine Evo - it comes with a separate little box, and I assume that simply has a couple of resistors inside it, so that there remains 1kΩ or 2kΩ resistance when the ram is fully retracted or extended. This kit also comes provided with a little 9v battery and I couldn't initially figure out what this is for - then I realised that you can't move the ram's position using the P90 control head during the Dockside Calibration. You're supposed to move the helm during this process, then press the button for hard port, centred and hard starboard - I assume that instead you use the battery, or any 12v source, to hotwire the ram, moving it between fully retracted and fully extended and pressing the button at each position. Then you remove the battery and reconnect the ram so the Evo can power it again.

Yes, that’s exactly what you do. The 9v battery just powers the ram one way or the other depending on polarity. It’s easy enough, but a bit of a nuisance if the ACU is not easily accessible. We’ve now wired a couple of tails to bring the terminals out somewhere convenient and will probably wire in a permanent switch somewhere close to the socket for the ram because it’s impossible to push it in when you are finished with it. You otherwise have to reach over to the display to power the ram in or out.

The small box just contains a couple of connectors to join the cables. The extra resistors are in the plug of the ram.

One quirk of using the PC Nautic ram is that the ACU is not powered up unless the ram is connected. I assume this is because the rudder reference is not permanently connected and that way it ensures the ACU is only active when it is present.

A friend of mine bought a dutch equivalent for the raymarine ev100. ( Keep forgetting the manufacturer but he says they are very helpfull) I do not think it is the Pelagic. He says it works very well, is cheaper, faster, quieter, more power & a drop in replacement for the raymarine one.. I am on my second ev 100 ram & i am far from impressed. ery noisy as well.

It is the PC Nautic one mentioned above and so far it’s been working very well. Most of the time you can’t really hear it at all, it’s only if it happens to do a large fast movement it’s more noticeable but it’s not intrusive. Usually it just makes very small corrections and those are virtually silent.