Proof of VAT paid (TVA) on French purchase

[rays]

Oh no, I hear you all cry! Not another bloody VAT enquiry */?!**. Well ,yes, I'm afraid so. The boat I am trying to buy was originally sold by Jeanneau to a French citizen. There is a copy of the registration document with his photo (looks like a passport) and a form stamped by French customs confirming French registration cancelled and transfer to second owner, British. The broker says that, in order to get a vessel registered in France, a private individual has to pay the TVA. The fact that the Frence customs have stamped the transfer is proof that it was paid. Does this make sense? Is it not possible or necesary to hold a TVA/VAT receipt? What happens when I take the boat to France?? Can anyone enlighten me or suggest what question to ask the broker or where to find a (watertight!) answer.

Thanks

CD

 

[tcm]

Yes. In my opinion (and others) the Acte de Franchisation is indeed watertight proof of vat paid, better than a uk vat receipt which is no proof at all. The reason being that french TVA works differently - once charged it cannot be reclaimed. And you cannot get an "acte de franchisation" logbook with paying TVA.

By contrast, i musthave raised several thousand invoices in uk to uk companis and individuals over the years, all showing vat - and most if not all that vat was reclaimed - and hence none of the stuff (in stock with customer) was actually vat paid but *did* have a vat invoice.

I hear that some numbnuts are wandering around the uk with vat itemised as though this proves vat paid, and fortunately the vat inspectors or next owners are saying ooh goody.

But in uk even if i pay the invoice and the vat and somehow get a certificate or othr piece of paper saying yes yes, he paid the vat...i can then reclaim the vat as soon as i do a bit of charter. At which point I have a certificate of vat paid and yet i reclaimed the vat. So really, there s no proof in the uk.

I understand the UK is seen as a bit "wild west" in fiscal matters and company law etc. All those boats in france with a french flag can be boarded by customs to check thiv paid their sailing tax, and there's a long list of stuff they should have and fines if the other officials like gendarnmes find they don't have it. Whereas we brits have salty veins you see, much better. Likewise if a german orgainsation wants tostart a uk branch the germans directors all decamp to uk, arive at some suprisingly scummy office and get uk company formed and delivered in shopping bag inside 10 minutes - and they thought it would take days of lawyers etc.

 

[jonic]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. In my opinion (and others) the Acte de Franchisation is indeed watertight proof of vat paid, better than a uk vat receipt which is no proof at all. The reason being that french TVA works differently - once charged it cannot be reclaimed. And you cannot get an "acte de franchisation" logbook with paying TVA.



[/ QUOTE ]

If that is indeed the case and the log book is only issued with proof of TVA then acording to the latest update (Jan 2007) from the RYA then you should be covered.

"SECONDHAND BOATS:
If you buy a second-hand boat within an EU country, you should ask
for proof that VAT has been paid in the same way that you would in
the UK. Proof will generally be the original/copy VAT receipt or
receipted invoice from when the boat was new, although some
countries incorporate information about the VAT status of boats
within the registration system."


You could contact HMRC to determine if they will accept it on:

National Yacht Line: 0845 723 1110
National Advice Service: 0845 010 9000

Give them full details of the documents held, plus the paper trail re bill of sales if the vessel was ever exported out of the EU for a time.

 

[TimDaniel]

On the subject of VAT - I've come across a boat which doesn't have any proof of VAT paid (UK) .... the owner says he didn't get proof from whoever he bought it from - 2005 boat - his argument is that he wasn't too bothered because , as it was shipped in to a British port, as opposed to arriving on it's own bottom, it wouldn't have been allowed out of the docks without VAT being paid on it. - is this possible, or likely?

 

[jonic]

Well it could have been for onward export. I have one coming in from France then going off to Malta and TVA will not be paid until then, there are various rules governing length of stay and use whilst this takes place. However the fact remains you now must have DOCUMENTED PROOF of vat paid or exemption if you are challenged by any EU customs officer.

Will update later but as of today UK customs are not accepting Cambridgedon's French Registration.

 

[TimDaniel]

Re: above - no the boat is in this country, just hasn't got proof of VAT paid. So - would it have been paid to get it released from the docks?

 

[jonic]

No. It does not have to be paid to be released.

This does not mean vat was not paid, but that argument cannot be used to PROVE that vat was paid.

UK dealers import boats from factories abroad, vat is not paid untill the boat is sold on. Long after it left the docks.


If you have any doubt and it's a vessel you are considering purchasing you should seek advice from HMCR or, if a member, the RYA legal dept.

I can't stress enough how important it is to have documented proof these days.