Project boat on YM?

[zoidberg]

A friend in the States has sent me a query regarding an article in a recent edition of YM 308....
'the story was from YM with a guy who bought an older yacht with good hull and budgeted the same again for a comprehensive refit.'

He sought my view but, as his link required an Apple device, I could not respond.

Would any kind soul care to precis for me the tale and any conclusions?

 

[LiftyK]

Trying to help here.

"as his link required an Apple device, I could not respond."

If someone sends a large email using Apple mail it copies the contents to Apple and then sends the recipient a link to download the contents. You should not have to be an Apple user to download the contents. Does this sound like your situation? Excuse my comment if irrelevant.

 

[zoidberg]

Trying to help here.

"as his link required an Apple device, I could not respond."

If someone sends a large email using Apple mail it copies the contents to Apple and then sends the recipient a link to download the contents. You should not have to be an Apple user to download the contents. Does this sound like your situation? Excuse my comment if irrelevant.

Thanks, LiftyK. I don't seem to have the option of a choice of app to open the material.
Yachting Monthly Issue 308

 

[Koeketiene]

A friend in the States has sent me a query regarding an article in a recent edition of YM 308....
'the story was from YM with a guy who bought an older yacht with good hull and budgeted the same again for a comprehensive refit.'

He sought my view but, as his link required an Apple device, I could not respond.

Would any kind soul care to precis for me the tale and any conclusions?

 

[zoidberg]

Bien merci, Koeketiene

I'll mull that and offer my friend some 'words of wisdom'.

 

[LiftyK]

Thanks, LiftyK. I don't seem to have the option of a choice of app to open the material.
Yachting Monthly Issue 308

Ah yes. It is an Apple News story that requires Apple gear and a subscription.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The words of wisdom I would offer would be the guy writing the article has got is budget figures wrong

 

[Mark-1]

5 grand for a complete suit of sails looks iffy, for a start.

 

[mrming]

Do you happen to know what boat it was and what it was purchased for @Koeketiene?

 

[Tranona]

It was a 1980s Jeanneau. It did not say when the work was done but from the prices quoted some years ago.

 

[zoidberg]

Bien merci, Koeketiene

I'll mull that and offer my friend some 'words of wisdom'.

I dropped some 'pearls of wisdom' on my far-distant friend, who replied with thanks but that 'the fever has now passed'.

 

[mrming]

It was a 1980s Jeanneau. It did not say when the work was done but from the prices quoted some years ago.

Okay interesting. Was struggling to think how this could make any kind of sense in today's market with respect to labour and material costs, availability of skilled people to do the work, and the UK yacht market. Obviously you could still do it if you really like the boat and can afford to take the hit / intend to keep it for a long time.

 

[Stemar]

It's a well-known fact that a project boat will always take three times as long and cost twice as much as your most pessimistic calculations but, for the impoverished masochists among us, there are some advantages over buying a ready to go boat. Firstly, there's no such thing as a ready to go boat. All boats are projects to a greater or lesser extent. Then, the costs are spread over a longer period of time, so are less visible to the family auditor, and, when it's all done (I know, I know...), you'll know your boat and its systems a lot better.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I bought a 1999 Bavaria 36 in 2011 for €38K .... costs over 12 years

Engine: 11K
Sails: 8K
Electronics: 3K
Electrics: 2K
Marina (12 years): 60K
Insurance: 6K
Antifouling: 18K
Epoxy treatment: 3K
Small Items and repairs: 15K

I fitted everything myself and only paid labour for engine install and epoxy/antifouling.

Total cost: 164K over 12 years. I sold it for 45K

So in total it cost around 10K a year.

 

[Koeketiene]

I dropped some 'pearls of wisdom' on my far-distant friend, who replied with thanks but that 'the fever has now passed'.

Good intervention

 

[Tranona]

Okay interesting. Was struggling to think how this could make any kind of sense in today's market with respect to labour and material costs, availability of skilled people to do the work, and the UK yacht market. Obviously you could still do it if you really like the boat and can afford to take the hit / intend to keep it for a long time.

It does not make any financial sense except in very specific cases. For example might be worth doing with something like a 1990s HR where there is such a huge gulf between the market value of a well worn boat and a later good one. My one experience on my project boat is that I have spent well over twice the purchase price on the refit but might only have (if I am lucky) doubled its value. On the other hand if you take a longer term view, say 5-10 years from completion and the boat meets your needs it is worthwhile. Regrettably I won't live that long, but my value is from the experience off actually doing it!

Its called post hoc rationalisation!

 

[Stemar]

I always reckon that it's best to offer a maximum of discouragement to anyone thinking of taking on a project. If they've got what it takes to see it through, they won't listen, and if our doom-mongering puts them off, they didn't have what it takes anyway.

 

[dunedin]

It does not make any financial sense except in very specific cases. For example might be worth doing with something like a 1990s HR where there is such a huge gulf between the market value of a well worn boat and a later good one. My one experience on my project boat is that I have spent well over twice the purchase price on the refit but might only have (if I am lucky) doubled its value. On the other hand if you take a longer term view, say 5-10 years from completion and the boat meets your needs it is worthwhile. Regrettably I won't live that long, but my value is from the experience off actually doing it!

Its called post hoc rationalisation!

Agreed. The conversion cost in cash terms almost the same again as the purchase price. And as far as I can see, he didn’t include any cost for what was presumably huge amounts of personal work time. Fine if that is what you want to do, but a huge time commitment and spend for what looks to be a fairly ordinary boat.

As for the suggestion that UK boatyards could set up in business doing this commercially seems very pie in the sky. Clearly a new build starts with the add on cost of creating a new hull and deck (expensive in materials, but labour wise possibly no more than refurbing an existing sound hull). But thereafter new build is massively faster and cheaper to do.
Compare fitting a new engine in a bare hull vs engine replacement in an old boat. With the former Ben/Jen/Bav/Han will buy a free thousand engines at huge discounts. All supplied ready to fit. These are dropped from a crane straight into the engine mounts with no deck in the way. 4 bolts on the feet, a few bolts round the saildrive, slot in the controls and probably well under an hour labour cost.
Doing a replacement got to get an old engine out through the companionway, spend ages cleaning up the bay, possibly repainting and reshaping engine mounts. Buy new engine of type that fits, so low volume with minimum discounts. Then doing lots of fiddling to route new cables for electrics and gear/throttle etc. Massivle more expensive labour wise.
And trying to do for a living need to add all the overheads of employments costs, yard costs, environmental compliance, UK CA certification, etc etc. Just look at the costs many years ago to “renew” a very simple Contessa 32.
Fine if you like private projects and have plenty of time. Though even then I prefer to go sailing than do projects.

 

[doug748]

..................As for the suggestion that UK boatyards could set up in business doing this commercially seems very pie in the sky. Clearly a new build starts with the add on cost of creating a new hull and deck (expensive in materials, but labour wise possibly no more than refurbing an existing sound hull). But thereafter new build is massively faster and cheaper to do.
Compare fitting a new engine in a bare hull vs engine replacement in an old boat. With the former Ben/Jen/Bav/Han will buy a free thousand engines at huge discounts. All supplied ready to fit. These are dropped from a crane straight into the engine mounts with no deck in the way. 4 bolts on the feet, a few bolts round the saildrive, slot in the controls and probably well under an hour labour cost.
Doing a replacement got to get an old engine out through the companionway, spend ages cleaning up the bay, possibly repainting and reshaping engine mounts. Buy new engine of type that fits, so low volume with minimum discounts. Then doing lots of fiddling to route new cables for electrics and gear/throttle etc. Massivle more expensive labour wise.
And trying to do for a living need to add all the overheads of employments costs, yard costs, environmental compliance, UK CA certification, etc etc. Just look at the costs many years ago to “renew” a very simple Contessa 32.
Fine if you like private projects and have plenty of time. Though even then I prefer to go sailing than do projects.

That's all true. Yards have punishing overheads. Contessa make a business largely out of refurbishing older boats but that is a niche that works because the boats are in demand and they started with an established business plus are in a unique position.

I know from pretty informed sources that a lengthy refurbishment of a 32 foot boat like that would be unlikely to cost under £200,000. It would be greater if you wanted to approach the standards of a new build which is probably in the region of £400,000.

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