Pricing second hand boats

[Toutvabien]

I am sure that this is an old chestnut but I am curious to discover how others view the way that we boatowners price our second hand boats when we come to sell them. I am currently looking to spend around £40,000 on a used boat and have been intrigued by how people price boats and how brokers try to flog them. During a number of viewings brokers have encouraged me to make any offer to see how the owner responds, presumably to try and get a negotiation going that they think might result in a sale.

I always assume that the advertised price of a used boat is at least 15% to 20%more than an owner expects to get for it, when I have bought boats in the past I have found that this assumption is about correct, (except when people do not really want to sell). In the used car business there are various price guides, presumably in the used boat world brokers, vendors and purchasers need to know what similar boats have sold for recently and have an idea of how bouyant the market for particular boat is at any time.

Now that we can buy a new 30 foot BavBenJen for £40k how do owners of 10 to 15 year old boats decide upon a price? The brokers t hat I have spoken to seem to be saying that the sales of used boats in the sector of the market that I am looking at have been badly hit by the new cheap imports. Does this mean it's a good time to buy used if one is prepared to haggle hard? What are the experieces of others

 

[tcm]

Re: make an offer - please!

the make an offer - any offer - is, I believe a heartfelt request from the broker. With a too-high-priced boat, he'll look bad if there are "no offers, not a peep" from the vendors point of view. Whereas, if a low offer comes in, it shows that a) there is some action and b) the broker was right in believing the boat to be too highly priced. The hefty movement comes from the sellers side, not the buyer - unless it really is a one in a million boat, and with all these bavs around there are lots and lots of options. I saw show offers for new boats 10% LESS than some 1yr old s/h examples at the boat show, for example. So always offer at least 20% less than asking.

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: make an offer - please!

The rumour of the 40k boat is exaggerated. This will be in basic form and will need a lot more spent on it to bring it up to speck. I have been looking at boats recently, and a new Bav 32, for example, actually sets you back more like 50k to bring it up to the level that a second hand boat goes for.
Second hand prices are always exaggerated and reduce in a two-stage process, the first is a basic offer, the second follows the survey. Most do fall about 15-20% I think at the end of the day.
Unless you intend your boat to see you to the grave, the price of a boat is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for. I have some concerns about the resale, esp of Bav’s, when looking at their second hand market. That’s why I eventually, after some soul searching, plumped for a 14 yr old Westerly instead!

 

[JeremyF]

Re: make an offer - please!

I think you cant generalise. I sold my last boat within 5% of the asking price. And I paid 99% of the asking price of my current boat, but that was 10% below the asking price 3 months earlier.

Both were priced to sell quickly.

But, on the other hand you see Westerly's and Moody's at silly prices, and we all know they need to come down 20% before they sell.

The key is to get a feel for the market, and pounce when the right thing comes up. Someone putting their boat up for sale at the second-hand boat show this week, asking 20% too much is unlikely to do a deal. But, in February, after no offers, and an order at LBS for a new replacement, he is going to be ready to do a deal.

<font color=blue>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=blue>

 

[Guest]

I agree - its very confusing and worrying bearing in mind the relatively huge sums we're forking out. A related topic is this:

When you want to by a new car - no problem. Find one, take your old car in and part exchange it. Nice and clean, and you always have transport.

I am now considering buying a second boat. However, it would appear that brokers don't part exchange. So I'm faced with 2 choices given the likelihood of finding a new boat and a buyer for mine at exactly the same timeis very low. I can either sell my boat and face being without sailing for a very long time - appalling. Or get a whacking great loan - appalling.

Why can't brokers part exchange?

Anybody got any advice? Anybody know brokers on the South Coast who do?

Geoff

 

[JeremyF]

The difference is that unlike car dealers a broker does not normally take title to the goods.

If you find one that will part exchange, you'll probably get a pretty crap price, as he is taking the risk on his books, and will be looking for a big mark-up.

Sell privately first, then deal in cash!

<font color=blue>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=blue>

 

[Guest]

Wot no boat! Are you mad man?

Geoff

 

[JeremyF]

Sell in Nov, buy in Feb.

<font color=blue>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=blue>

 

[Toutvabien]

I am glad to see that I am not the only one perplexed by the situation. The notion of sell now buy in February is one that has a logic to it, from abuyers point of view, but what I really want to get at was why do we all engage in this ritual? Is it to convince ourselves that we have an asset rather than a liability sitting in the middle of a river 5 days a week? Or are brokers to blame for trying to make us think that they can actually get us that extra 20%, (although when the sale price is finally agreed it is what you would have got selling it privately anyway).

What it tends to suggest to me is that we really do not know what a boat is "worth" until the deal is done. As a potential buyer you have to offer what you feel that the boat is worth to you, if the seller disagrees so much that he won't do a deal then so be it. There are plenty more boats in the sea.

 

[JeremyF]

Its down to marketing, and basic preparation. I sold a '84 Moody 31 in Feb in 3 weeks within 5% of the asking price. And, it wasnt anything special. How? Moving it up to Port Solent, having it spotlessly clean, with a heater on board, and a decent web site. Have a look at www.yacht-godeneye.co.uk

200 hits, 4 serious viewers and a sale in 3 weeks.

If your competition is tired old yachts listed with lazy brokers, you'll sell quickly.
Price it sensibly - 5% under the advertised prices, and you'll get close to the asking price.

<font color=blue>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=blue>

 

[Guest]

Assuming that you have selected the model you want, how do you then arrive at a price. Suppose you choose a Westerly Fulmar. Is there a rule of thumb to show how much more a 1983 boat is worth than say a 1987 version or is there an age at which the year is unimportant. If the 1983 boat has just had a new engine or has extras such as radar does this make it more valuable than the 1987 boat where the ownwer will undoubtedly say 'the engine is totally reliable'.

Ultimately is putting new kit on an old boat or come to that any boat a waste of money in terms of resale value.

I guess a Fulmar with new instruments will sell before one in similar condition and age than one with old instruments but at a very similar price!

 

[Toutvabien]

In relation to the question of how much value new kit adds to the price of a boat I think that it depends to some extent on the age of the boat. While a 1987 diesel engine could be reliable I don't think that many of us would pay top dollar for a 1970's boat with it's original lump(especially if it were a Stuart Turner or some such bit of mooring ballast), similarly with sails on older boats. Electronics don't seem to make any real difference to price as they are now so cheap and become out of date so quickly.

The point about age is interesting in that in many cases older boats are better presented and certainly after a number of years, and I do not know what that number is, depreciation does appear to stop.

 

[Toutvabien]

Re: Still pricing second hand boats

In relation to the question of how much value new kit adds to the price of a boat I think that it depends to some extent on the age of the boat. While a 1987 diesel engine could be reliable I don't think that many of us would pay top dollar for a 1970's boat with it's original lump(especially if it were a Stuart Turner or some such bit of mooring ballast), similarly with sails on older boats. Electronics don't seem to make any real difference to price as they are now so cheap and become out of date so quickly.

The point about age is interesting in that in many cases older boats are better presented and certainly after a number of years, and I do not know what that number is, depreciation does appear to stop.

 

[kingfisher]

Sell price overview

In Holland & Belgium, almost everybody buys and sells their boat through
http://www.botenbank.nl/

the Boat Bank even has a listing of the selling (not the asked price) all the boats that were listed: if you sell your boat through the boat bank, you get a questionair, asking for how much you actually sold your boat.
http://www.botenbank.nl/koers/default.asp
"Koers" is rate
"Merknaam" is boat brand.
Prices listed in Euro, sorted by year.
Top row is the year it was sold

It does not give you the extra's a boat was equiped with.

Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com

 

[david_e]

Can\'t sell em & can\'t buy em!

If you are looking at a fairly newish boat at £40k, and looking to get 15-20% off the price, you might struggle. Likewise if you are looking to pay £40k for a boat which is on the market for, say, £47-£50k, you might need a very motivated seller. Am in a similar situation and mode of thinking as you, but begining to change outlook

Older boats, can't advise.

If you want to do the 'acid test' let me know.

 

[iainmillett]

My approach is to look in yachting magazines on min max prices for 2nd hand boats and then price accordingly. Post survey, if there are matters requiring work, I split the cost 50/50.

By and large you'll get what you pay for a boat, less brokerage IF you buy right. However, with deflation now at work, many new boats are being sold at prices close to boats 2 or 3 years old.

There are also directories around that give boat values to help substantiate prices.

 

[jonjo]

After nearly a year of looking for a yacht I have noticed that the better yachts with smart organized owners tend to arrive on the market with perfect timing in early spring.

Prices might be lower mid winter but at this time of year a buyer is more likely to encounter the tatty dross sitting on the market.