Pre-survey survey?

[david_e]

Have read quite a few different thoughts, views and feelings about surveyors and surveys on these forums. But the question that goes through my mind is, assuming a modicum of knowledge, how far can you get on your own when viewing a yacht before instructing a surveyor. Line of thinking is fairly obvious, can you spot a lemon/dog on your own thereby avoiding the cost of surveyor and moving onto the next boat.

For example, a while ago I went to view a 1995 built 31'ft yacht, started at the back and crawled all around it, into nooks and crannies no signs of leakage anywhere from above or below, engine looked clean no oil leaks or mist, no sign of the thing having been stripped down, no nasty smells or mildew, bilges dry and clean. Into the forecabin all clear until I looked in the very forward section of the bow when pulling back the boards it revealed a compartment full of water, about 18" deep, 3-4 gallons in all. Water was fresh so deduced that it was coming through the anchor well as exterrnal inspection revealed no hull damage. Probably someone dropping it in at some stage, not enough to reject boat although surprised that the broker knew nothing about the water. External inspection all looked ok, dirty but would clean up, had been antifouled, keel was solid as was rudder, ie no play, rigging appeared ok. So far so good, thinking about offer subject to survey, back into broker's office asked to see history and if there was a survey on file. Kind (but fortunately not too sharp) assistant hands me copy of survey done in 1997, which reveals concern over cracks/crazing in main inner hull section due to boat most probably having not been handled on shore properly at some stage. Now, I did not spot this major problem so seeing the previous report saved me a survey. (had the broker told me about before I set off then I could have avoided a 600 mile round trip!) Next time I look I will be more vigilant for this type of thing.

My questions are;
1 just what are the main things on the boat to focus on?
2 I have read that when surveyors inspect a hull they go tapping with a small hammer all around it for signs of delamination/repair etc, do they tap every 6 inches or so or just at the main structural points such as a bulkhead.
3 With a diesel engine such as these, sinles, twins or three cylinders, can you give them a quick run for a few seconds to see if they fire up ok? I see the motorboaters take oil samples for analysis, but their engines are obviously quite costly, but would you do it on yacht engines?
4 In general, what other things do they do that you have seen/thought- well I could have done/spotted that.

Spending this kind of money I will always get a survey, but want to avoid wasting time and money. All comments welcome!

 

[AndrewB]

Several books deal with this, also a collection of good tips can be found at http://www.yachtsurvey.com/.

Remember, almost all faults can be fixed. The only ones I would categorically walk away from in a GRP boat is problems with the hull-keel bonding, extensive crazing or other evidence of layup deficiencies, delamination (sandwich construction), major problems with the windows. Osmosis, specially if it hasn't been treated before, will take time but is fairly routine to deal with. Rewiring - can be a major problem on boats where its built in. Bent mast - difficult - does it represent a weakness and will it get worse? Other problems are mainly bargaining points, though of course major work is time and hassle as well as cost.

Its possible to fire up a diesel VERY BRIEFLY without cooling water if it uses a heat exchange system, but few sellers are going to permit this. Also its possible to pump in cooling water. But in practice surveyors will rarely test engines on boats ashore. The RYA recommend you should always specify a sea trial.

 

[gunnarsilins]

When buying my....

...boat three years ago I had a surveyor. I bought a rather neglected 42´from -77.
But, in retrospect, he didn´t find anything I hadn´t found already by myself.
Still he was worth the money - I could use his report for a negotiation of the price, which might have been hard otherways. So in the end I had him for free.
The report was also usable for getting insurance.
Finally, a survey meant a lot for my own peace and confidence. Especially when my first trip with the boat was a long delivery from Western Scotland to Stockholm

So, at least when buying a bigger and older yacht I think the money spent on a survey is well worth it.
But, say a smaller yacht for less money, I doubt I would use a surveyor.

 

[jonjo]

> how far can you get on your own when viewing a yacht before instructing a
> surveyor.

Far enough to agree a substantial discount before booking the professional survey. I got 5k off a 30k yacht recently based on my own findings.

You can sense a neglected yacht and begin to price up a renovation budget independent of the official faults list from the surveyor.

The hull crazing you mention in the previous report would not condemn a yacht in my eyes. It might not be a massive GRP repair assuming the damaged internal area can be accessed.

> 1 just what are the main things on the boat to focus on?

The rudder and where the rudder puts stress on the hull.

Water in rudder - shake it, tap it.

Box sections (technically called floors) under cabin sole (assuming a round bilge design). The sections can crack if a fin keel grounds at speed.

GRP to bulkhead bonding, particularly where the inertia of a bolt-on keel might flex the hull. Traditional v shaped hulls eliminate so many problems in this area and you get a proper bilge sump as part of the deal!

Crawl around deck looking for stress crazing resulting from medium speed toe rail impacts.

Caress every square foot of topsides while looking for crazing then stand back and look for wide-area gel coat colour mismatch.

If the fuel tank is not SS look for further problems.

Look for DIY customisation that spoil the underlying design.

Crazed portholes and hatches.

If you are 6ft plus and the yacht is an old design make sure there is decent bunk for you. A yacht conceived in the 60's was designed for shorter people.

Finally if the owner has left tons of personal gear aboard, don't be coy, drag everything out of the way and peer into all corners.

Demand every detail about a so called engine rebuild of recondition. One man's routine maintenance is another’s recondition, so check for invoices.

The most important piece of advice when dealing with owners and brokers is, don't be intimidated by the prevailing "isn’t this yachting business jolly good middle-class fun" attitude.

If someone has to sell an expensive leisure toy in a minor recession then you deserve 20% off the price. Remember it can cost £2k p/a to keep a yacht in a marketable location, plus another £2k in lost interest p/a, plus insurance, plus deterioration.

Don’t develop a friendship with the existing owners because you are just about to deliver a major financial insult.

 

[DoctorD]

You can get a long way yourself. I have a book "Inspecting Fibreglass Yachts" by Don Casey (Adlard Coles) which is very good. I agree that a professional survey is always worth it but you can pick up yourself on most things which helps your own peace of mind.

Graham

 

[david_e]

Thanks for this Jonjo, excellent detail and thanks to others for your responses as well.

 

[andy_wilson]

Oil Analysis

Finnings UK in Leeds do the RNLI, truck fleets, excavators the size of houses and my Volvo 2002 oil for about £8.00 a sample.

You need to run the engine up hot and stir the oil well before extracting the 100ml or so.

I sample mine at least once a season.

You'll find them on 192, and they will send you a little bottle and a post paid jiffy bag for your money.

Recently recieved a mailshot advising that results are now placed on the web, with comparison tools for on-going samples.

I wouldn't hesitate for an older engine or if there is any doubt about it's maintenance or servicability.

 

[BarryD]

Re: Oil Analysis

Andy - is this worth doing on marine petrol engines too?

Thoughts to keep you awake - Is the depth alarm on 1.4 or 1.2....