Power boats speeding on the Orwell

davidwf

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Having moved out of the locked Shotley Marina to Woolverstone for a change, I am amazed at the number of speeding power boats on the upper reach's of the Orwell. I have even noticed that MDL let Jet Skis launch at Woolverstone and today there was someone water skiing past the Marina. Now I always thought that there was a 6 knot limit on the Orwell except just downstream of Levington where skingwas allowed.

Is this s new thing or have these boats been charging up and down every year? I guess they are too afraid to venture out to sea as I've not seen as many when sailing from Shotley.

If it dosn't get better through the season I think I'll be heading round to the Deben for peace and quiet.
 

Mudhook

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They've been at it a while but are only a moderate nuisance. Jetski launching and ski-ing quite rare at Woolverstone. Did see one jetski this weekend but no more. Some would say the passing freighters cause more problems, but I rather like 'em. If you trade locked marina life for the open river you must expect these things - they aren't really a big hassle. Welcome to the best marina on the east coast!

We've been at Woolverstone a while; PM me if you want more local info and ID.

Regards, Mudhook.
 

sailorman

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[ QUOTE ]
They've been at it a while but are only a moderate nuisance. Jetski launching and ski-ing quite rare at Woolverstone. Did see one jetski this weekend but no more. Some would say the passing freighters cause more problems, but I rather like 'em. If you trade locked marina life for the open river you must expect these things - they aren't really a big hassle. Welcome to the best marina on the east coast!

We've been at Woolverstone a while; PM me if you want more local info and ID.

Regards, Mudhook.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont u mean the MOST EXPENSIVE MARINA ON THE EAST COAST /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 

Santana379

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Woolverstone may be expensive, and have big waves going through it in an NW gale, but the location is stunning, facilities great, and it's very well run with really nice and helpful staff (IMHO).

The speeding powerboat problem just seems to get worse - why do these things never improve- think what it'll be like in a few years time unless the limit is enforced. I suspect it'll take a nasty accident with at least one fatality on the Orwell before they make any serious effort to resolve the problem.

I find crossing from the moorings opposite Suffolk Yacht Harbour (Levington) into the marina in a dinghy at night fairly scary - they seem to open the throttle once down river of Pin Mill and come down at enormous speed. On the occasions I find myself doing this I always take a searchlight to shine at them rather than rely on a small torch.

The Deben isn't much better - its just that there aren't many of the bigger mobos based there. Jet skis, speedboats etc. roar close past my mooring by the Horse Sand buoy at Felixstowe Ferry. The harbourmaster is powerless to stop them.

On one occasion right up the Deben at the Methersgate moorings a couple of years ago two speedboats came down the narrow channel on the plane - sticking fingers up in response to my visual signal to slow down. Not nice for a father with his thirteen year old daughter and friend out rowing in the dinghy.

Two years ago a mile or so off Felixstowe a large (40ft?) Ice Cream Cone was coming straight at us, and closing very fast. There were no other boats within a mile. It only changed course when a man came up on to the flybridge, seemingly summoned by the woman at the wheel, and took over. Not a river problem, but the sort of incident that increases one’s prejudice against the craft and their owners. I’m sure there are lots of very competent and responsible owners, (if burning the world’s increasingly dwindling stock of fossil fuels at that sort of rate purely for their own pleasure can be considered responsible).

The debate will never be resolved to the satisfaction of both sides, but hopefully the RYA will fail in their attempt to keep diesel cheap, which can only help. They can do what they want offshore when no one else is close, but should not be allowed to enjoy their personal liberty in rivers at the expense of ours.
 

KevB

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[ QUOTE ]
but hopefully the RYA will fail in their attempt to keep diesel cheap, which can only help. They can do what they want offshore when no one else is close, but should not be allowed to enjoy their personal liberty in rivers at the expense of ours.



[/ QUOTE ]

Twonk!
 

Aardee

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Agreed. While the irresponsible powerboaters give all mobo-ers a bad name, this sort of comment doesn't do us raggies a lot of good...

We don't all think like that, promise.

Graham.
 

davidwf

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Thanks for comments

To be honest I'm coming to the conclusion that the power boats that cause the problems probably don't even have a chart onboard and hence the drivers don't know the speed limits. I also doubt if they know the coll regs, suspect they just buy the boat and off they go.

They also have no idea how much hassle wash causes or how dangerous it is. I was putting the sails away yesterday standing on top of the coach roof as a small speedboat went past at full speed. Fortunately I saw him coming and was able to get down in time.

I have no problems at all with power boats and understand that they sometimes create less wash when planing so don't put me down as a power boat hater. There is plenty of room for all of us if both sides show consideration. And yes Yachts can be equally as thoughtless.

What I cannot stand is the thought of the East Coast becoming like the Solent.
 

oldgit

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A thoughful, balanced well argued case from the other side of the fence is always a pleasure to hear. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.gives the other chap a chance to appreciate your point of view and not jump to any wrong conclusions about Mo|Bores in general.
 

Santana379

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I’m not sure what you object to in what I said, apart perhaps for a certain belligerence in the way I said “which can only help”. Perhaps you have not had a dangerous experience at close quarters with a mobo. I have of course also encountered incompetence in sailing boats on the part of others, (and of course myself), but have never been downright scared of another sailing boat presumably because of the slower speeds involved.

My main point, which is that they should not be allowed to speed in rivers where there is a speed limit, especially through moorings, is hard to argue with, though perhaps you think its ok. In saying ”but should not be allowed to enjoy their personal liberty in rivers at the expense of ours” I simply mean that the noise, wash, and risk from speeding mobos are an infringement of my personal liberty. It is them breaking the rules after all, and not me.

As to “hopefully the RYA will fail in their attempt to keep diesel cheap” – what possible justification is there for leisure boat users to have access to red diesel? Nurses going to work have to pay all the taxes on their car fuel, but recreational sailors and motor boat users don’t? Where’s the justice in that.

I suspect a surprisingly high proportion of sailors think as I do – most that I know certainly do. Some disagree about the red diesel, but that will be because of self-interest. The same people criticise the USA for its profligate consumption of oil however.

I have no desire to foster bad will with mobo owners/skippers – indeed I have friends who fit that description, all of whom are both competent and responsible, and do not speed in the Orwell.
 

Santana379

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A further thought, and I'm told it is important to maintain a balanced and open view, is that in most scary and unseamanlike incidents that I have been involved in/witnessed with mobos the power unit has been petrol, and not diesel - i.e. outboard powered.

Doesn't alter my view on red diesel however, and some of the big ones roar along the Orwell.

Then again Grey Funnel Lines do it sometimes - there was an incident on the Orwell a couple of years ago when they tore past us way over the speed limit, and were shortly afterwards asked on the VHF by the coastguard to make an apology to the owner of a moored boat who I believe was knocked over in his cabin. The naval officer sounded very embaressed at being thus humiliated on the air, and requested transfer to telephone contact. I don't know what happened thereafter.
 

fireball

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Red Diesel

Although this is a slight drift off thread - you said you cannot see any justification for Leisure boaters to get their diesel tax free ... ok - so if Diesel were to be taxed - where would you expect to see the money generated being spent?
IMO the justification for taxation should be to fund improvements or services for the people being taxed - rather than the current method of Tax to control consumption and worse still - tax for taxes sake.
Raising the price of fuel will NOT stop people speeding any more than the current high level of tax on petrol sees car drivers driving at 56MPH ... with this in mind, believing that higher fuel prices will give speed control is a complete nonsense.

Speed bumps is the best way to control speed - and if I was you I would petition the harbour authorities to install them in the river as soon as possible.
 

Santana379

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Re: Red Diesel

No problem at all with your logic. Clearly the current/likely next Government need the extra revenue as, once they have subsidised their excess spending for one year only with an accelerated tax payment, their budget will not be balanced. Additional revenue is needed to ensure that the country in which we live is a going concern.

If we get into a political debate about taxation in general, then Kim will boot us off to the lounge.

I do not see it as a tax increase however, but the removal of a wholly unjustifiable concession. Once again: "Nurses going to work have to pay all the taxes on their car fuel, but recreational sailors and motor boat users don’t? Where’s the justice in that." Fuel is taxed, whether you like it or not - so why the concession to recreational boat users?

There are more than enough speed bumps on the water as it is!
 

Andrew_Fanner

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Re: Red Diesel

Driving to work too much tax? Get the bus like me!
Whose personal enjoyment should take precedence? Now that one will never be answered in a way that pleases all.

We are not all grasping speed merchants so don't suggest we are:) I'm in favour of speed limits in areas where there are moorings or restrictions in the channel, and also the enforcement of same. Boaters who don't slow down are simply showing very bad manners. In passing I recall seeing a windsurfer make a mess of himself and the boat he hit several years ago, and that was a boat anchored up near a beach in the S of Spain. Sailyboard fellow was showing off to the girls on the beach. PWC with sails moment there.
 

AlexL

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Re: Red Diesel

a bit of thread drift, but the diesel you put in your car has ROAD TAX and VAT on it, why should a boater pay ROAD TAX on their diesel?
I also assume from your points that you are of the 'essential worker' mindset that thinks that somehow a nurse going to work is more important than anyone else? who do you think pays the nurses salary - the private sector workers, thats who.
Besides the tax generated from removing red diesel will be almost unmeaserable in the governments budget, and is even reackoned to be revenue neutral by some, i.e it is an envy tax not a revenue generation tax.
Before everyone lays into mobo'ers too much, it is worth reflecting that with the demise of Rover the proportion of the UK manufacturing industry which is mobo manufacturing is now even larger and even more important.
A agree that they should not be alowed to speed, and this should be managed, but taxing the fuel is not the way to do it
 

KevB

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Re: Red Diesel

There needs to be a deterrent stopping inconsiderate boaters (off all types) from breaking bye laws and colregs. Your local harbour master is to blame for not enforcing the rules. With the possibility of a £5000 fine, not many ignore the speed limits in Chichester harbour where I am based.

If you have invested a lot of money in a boat most people also invest the time to learn the rules which apply, but without enforcement those who haven't bothered to learn or choose to ignore them haven't got a reason to comply.
They no not what they do, and probably should not be forgiven!!

As for tax on red diesel, why do you so easily accept tax as the norm and call it a concession rather than extortion?
Who says the current tax level on red diesel isn't at a sufficient level?

Should marine diesel become taxed at the Derv rate any extra revenue raised will be lost in administration. No benefit to the government and a detrimental effect to boating associated businesses. In the long run it may even reduce your enjoyment with less well looked after places to visit due to the reduced number of visitors, or fewer restaurants because we can't afford to eat in them. only maybe but maybe....

What will pi$$ me off is if the government use the EU's insistance on parity as an excuse to raise tax on red diesel, then raise it to our Derv rates. A rise to the average EU price is not acceptable but makes a bitter pill easier to swallow. But in the end a rise in marine diesel tax will have a negative effect. IMHO.

Kevin.
 

Santana379

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Re: Red Diesel

Thanks for your intelligent and well expressed views Andrew_Fanner, AlexL, and KevB.

I think we are all very sympathetic with davidwf’s original point about mobo’s, or to be precise, “speeding power boats”, exceeding the limit on the River Orwell, or indeed anywhere else where there is a speed limit in place with good reason.

I must defend the harbour master at Felixstowe Ferry – I’m not sure what he could do in his 6kt launch. I am sadly unfamiliar with Chichester, but I have seen the traffic cops in action in Poole once – a RIB complete with blue flashing light pulling over a Jet Ski in the harbour.

I also share davidwf’s concern about the “East Coast becoming like the Solent”. My viewpoint is hard to defend though, as my objection stems from an elitist attitude – I don’t like the increasing volume of boats of all types on the water because it makes it more crowded and less pleasant for me. I also mind that the growth seems to be in floating caravans rather boats of beauty or character, but then again that seems to be what people want.

I’m guilty of introducing red diesel into the thread, mainly because I “saw red” when recounting a couple of my scary moments at the hand of high speed and/or speeding powerboats.

One of the troubles with debates is that those with strongly held views rarely change their opinions even in the face of superior reasoning. In this instance I simply can’t see why diesel for boats should be cheaper than diesel for cars. Otherwise, should not the recreational Chelsea Tractor driver have access to red diesel if he wants to drive it off road for pleasure? I used the nurse driving to work as an example not of an essential worker, but of someone most of us consider both worthy and poorly paid. I’ve always believed in taxation being levied on the ability to pay principle, and without accusing all boat owners of being privileged, (I know that is not the case), I suspect nurses fall below the national average for boat ownership.

Supporting the home boat manufacturing industry is laudable, but I really think it’s the owners who are being supported. Similar arguments were used when company car benefits changed to being based on list price instead of cubic capacity – an upper ceiling was put in to protect the Bentley and Aston Martin end of the spectrum. So much for ability to pay.

I’m a relative newcomer to the forums, and am sure this is all ground that has been covered before, many times – if so my apologies.

I do look forward to the day when there are GATSOs on the Orwell, and when someone has the guts to ban Jetskis from operating within 3000yds of the beach at Felixstowe, except for leaving and returning at 6kts.
 

StugeronSteve

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Re: Red Diesel

[ QUOTE ]
should not the recreational Chelsea Tractor driver have access to red diesel if he wants to drive it off road for pleasure?

[/ QUOTE ] The "recreational tractor driver" has every right to use red diesel, cooking oil, or anything else that he can burn, provided that he remains on private property. However, should he stray on to Her Majesty's highways, with even a trace of such substances in his tank, he would be subject to the interest of Customs and Excise.
 

Santana379

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Re: Red Diesel

[ QUOTE ]
The "recreational tractor driver" has every right to use red diesel, cooking oil, or anything else that he can burn, provided that he remains on private property. However, should he stray on to Her Majesty's highways, with even a trace of such substances in his tank, he would be subject to the interest of Customs and Excise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shows what I know! There goes another of my arguments. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

StugeronSteve

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Re: Red Diesel

Francis, there is very little justification, if any, for leisure boat users enjoying a tax exemption. But, in my humble understanding this is not the case. The tax on the diesel we buy at the roadside has, as far as I am aware, always been a road tax and should not apply to boats. If the government wish to tax boat fuel they should be honest and identify it as a NEW tax, not the closing of a loop hole.
 
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