Portugal D7 visa

[179580]

Colleague has shallow possibility of obtaining a Dutch citizenship to allow unrestricted access to Schengen. The other alternative is the D7 visa. Does anyone have any recent knowledge or experience of the process and any pitfalls? In particular a liveaboard in a marina is sufficient accomodation to complete the application or is a property rental required? TIA

 

[nortada]

Colleague has shallow possibility of obtaining a Dutch citizenship to allow unrestricted access to Schengen. The other alternative is the D7 visa. Does anyone have any recent knowledge or experience of the process and any pitfalls? In particular a liveaboard in a marina is sufficient accomodation to complete the application or is a property rental required? TIA

To cut out any confusion from the outset; citizenship and residency are different and as I know nothing about citizenship, I limit my comments to residency.

I am based in Portugal and note your main interest appears to be the Nederland? Whilst individual countries control the issues of residency and citizenship (in their country) the EU controls Schengen policy and regulations.

Am I right In my thinking that your interest in EU citizenship, rather than residency is because citizenship would give you unlimited travel everywhere in the EU, whereas residency will only give unlimited time in your host country but no extra privileges in any other Schengen country?

If you are buying property in Portugal and some other EU countries you may be able use the golden visa option (Investment Fund Option for Portugal Golden Visa: The Definitive Guide) to get residency to remain in that country permanently. No doubt somebody who knows more than me will be along shortly to fill in on the details.

Returning to your question; I live on a boat in a marina and have no other property interests in Portugal. To gain residency, I did not to have or rent property in Portugal but had to have a contact mail address (an email address will not suffice.

I got residency before 1/1/21.

As unlimited time in The UK and Portugal and up to 90 days in 180 in any other EU country more than meets my needs, I have no intention to pursue Portuguese citizenship.

I appreciate that this doesn’t address your question on a D7 but the background may be of interest.

Looking forward to the discussion on D7.

Ps edited out a typo.

 

[179580]

To cut out any confusion from the outset; citizenship and residency are different and as I know nothing about citizenship, I limit my comments to residency.

I am based in Portugal and note your main interest appears to be the Nederland? Whilst individual countries control the issues of citizenship and citizenship, the EU controls Schengen policy and regulations.

Am I right In my thinking that your interest in EU citizenship, rather than residency is because citizenship would give you unlimited travel everywhere in the EU, whereas residency will only give unlimited time in your host country but no extra privileges in any other Schengen country?

If you are buying property in Portugal and some other EU countries you may be able use the golden visa option (Investment Fund Option for Portugal Golden Visa: The Definitive Guide) to get residency to remain in that country permanently. No doubt somebody who knows more than me will be along shortly to fill in on the details.

Returning to your question; I live on a boat in a marina and have no other property interests in Portugal. To gain residency, I did not to have or rent property in Portugal but had to have a contact mail address (an email address will not suffice.

I got residency before 1/1/21.

As unlimited time in The UK and Portugal and up to 90 days in 180 in any other EU country more than meets my needs, I have no intention to pursue Portuguese citizenship.

I appreciate that this doesn’t address your question on a D7 but the background may be of interest.

Looking forward to the discussion on D7.

My colleagues intention was to possibly obtain a Dutch passport as dual nationality so being unrestricted in Schengen travel. He has a boat currently in S of F. Certain difficulties with dual nationality with the Dutch, basically they do not allow it. However, it is our understanding that any Dutch person in UK may apply for a dual nationality, BUT any Brit in Netherlands will not be permitted. He has Dutch links through ancestry so pretty tenuous. Obviously looking after their own interests re Brexit. We have recently become aware of the D7 visa in Portugal. This visa is not the Golden Visa, this is the retirement visa and only requires a guaranteed income of £650 per month approx. Many explanations if you search for Portugese D7 visa on Google or you tube. What we cannot establish is what constitutes a "lawful address". The information seems to suggest that once the visa is granted then you will be persona grata within Schengen as you would pre Brexit.

 

[st599]

The D7 visa is a residence visa that is intended to enable the holder to obtain a residence permit in Portugal. In this context, the visa is valid for two entries and entitles the holder to remain in Portugal for a period of 4 months.
The D7 visa enables the respective holder to obtain a residence permit in Portugal for a period of one year, which can then be renewed for successive periods of 2 years and can be converted into a permanent residence permit after 5 years.

That seems to suggest that it's a step on the road to residence rather than citizenship.

 

[syvictoria]

The information seems to suggest that once the visa is granted then you will be persona grata within Schengen as you would pre Brexit.

If by this you are suggesting that the D7 would grant full FoM, then unfortunately I believe that you're wrong. It's been widely accepted in other threads on here that no visa or residency provides FoM. The visa/residency relates only to the country in which it is granted, and Schengen 90/180 continues to apply elsewhere. This is I think mentioned by Nortada above too.

I think that I am correct in saying that citizenship is THE ONLY way to obtain full Freedom of Movement 365/365. Each EU state is responsible for it's own visa policy, but it does not have the right to grant permissions to rights in other states. Sorry.

 

[179580]

If by this you are suggesting that the D7 would grant full FoM, then unfortunately I believe that you're wrong. It's been widely accepted in other threads on here that no visa or residency provides FoM. The visa/residency relates only to the country in which it is granted, and Schengen 90/180 continues to apply elsewhere. This is I think mentioned by Nortada above too.

I think that I am correct in saying that citizenship is THE ONLY way to obtain full Freedom of Movement 365/365. Each EU state is responsible for it's own visa policy, but it does not have the right to grant permissions to rights in other states. Sorry.

Not quite sure how to put a link in but it is interesting listening to Almeida,Dias e Associados on you tube. Look at the short video D7 visa. A lot of other sites seem to be of the same view.

 

[syvictoria]

Not quite sure how to put a link in but it is interesting listening to Almeida,Dias e Associados on you tube. Look at the short video D7 visa. A lot of other sites seem to be of the same view.

I'll have a search.

As for inserting a link, there's a link shortcut in the menu above - it looks like a pair of chain links. Ctrl + K should also work, or even just copy and paste I think.

 

[kingfisher]

If by this you are suggesting that the D7 would grant full FoM, then unfortunately I believe that you're wrong. It's been widely accepted in other threads on here that no visa or residency provides FoM. The visa/residency relates only to the country in which it is granted, and Schengen 90/180 continues to apply elsewhere. This is I think mentioned by Nortada above too.

I think that I am correct in saying that citizenship is THE ONLY way to obtain full Freedom of Movement 365/365. Each EU state is responsible for it's own visa policy, but it does not have the right to grant permissions to rights in other states. Sorry.

Yes and no,

There are 2 things in one: the visa (the right to enter and reside) and the work permit.

A residency doesn't grant FOM, so you cant live/work/study in another country. But it does grant full time residency. so you can travel to Germany and Spain for as long as you want (more than 90 days), you just can't live/work/study there.

A D7 grants unlimited access to the whole of Schengen, but it only provides a work permit to Portugal

 

[syvictoria]

Yes and no,

There are 2 things in one: the visa (the right to enter and reside) and the work permit.

A residency doesn't grant FOM, so you cant live/work/study in another country. But it does grant full time residency. so you can travel to Germany and Spain for as long as you want (more than 90 days), you just can't live/work/study there.

A D7 grants unlimited access to the whole of Schengen, but it only provides a work permit to Portugal

Can you please provide links to support these claims?

 

[syvictoria]

Free movement of persons | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European Parliament

The concept of the free movement of persons has changed in meaning since its inception. The first provisions on the subject, in the 1957 Treaty establishing the European Economic Community (1.1.1, 2.1.5 and 2.1.4), covered the free movement of workers and freedom of establishment, and thus individuals as employees or service providers. The Treaty of Maastricht introduced the notion of EU citizenship to be enjoyed automatically by every national of a Member State. It is this EU citizenship that underpins the right of persons to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. The Lisbon Treaty confirmed this right, which is also included in the general provisions on the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice.

FoM is about the right to move - for travel, residence, work and study.

 

[nortada]

My colleagues intention was to possibly obtain a Dutch passport as dual nationality so being unrestricted in Schengen travel.

I see you are now introducing another category - nationality. My understanding of nationality is what you were born with so it is unlikely that it could be subsequently changed or added to.

Another frequently used term is domicility.

Floating between these terms will only serve to further confuse this discussion.

 

[syvictoria]

I see you are now introducing another category - nationality. My understanding of nationality is what you were born with so it is unlikely that it could be subsequently changed or added to.

Another frequently used term is domicility.

Floating between these terms will only serve to further confuse this discussion.

I have to confess to having previously used these two terms interchangeably and without much consideration. But your post prompted me to have a quick Google!

From citizenship - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission

citizenship
Definition(s)
The particular legal bond between an individual and their State, acquired by birth or naturalisation, whether by declaration, choice, marriage or other means according to national legislation.
Note(s)
1. Whilst in some EU Member States a distinction is made between citizenship and nationality, in the EU context and for the purpose of this glossary, no distinction is made and the two terms are considered to be interchangeable. In countries which distinguish between citizenship and nationality, the term citizenship refers specifically to the legal rights and duties of nationals. The European Convention on Nationality, the International Organization for Migration (IOM) Glossary and the EUDO Glossary on Citizenship and Nationality
2. According to Art. 1 of the Hague Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Law, 1930, it is for each State to determine under its own laws who are its nationals.
3. The tie of nationality confers individual rights and imposes obligations that a State reserves for its population. Nationality carries with it certain consequences as regards migration, such as the right of a State to protect its nationals against violations of their individual rights committed by foreign authorities (particularly by means of diplomatic protection), the duty to accept its nationals onto its territory, and the prohibition to expel them.

Ed. to add that it's note 1 that provides the answer here.

 

[179580]

I see you are now introducing another category - nationality. My understanding of nationality is what you were born with so it is unlikely that it could be subsequently changed or added to.

Another frequently used term is domicility.

Floating between these terms will only serve to further confuse this discussion.

So if you were born to a person of a country in that country, but you father was from another country. The new born would probably be entitled to dual nationality. This can be retro application just like the rush for Irish dual nationality in the run up to Brexit. I see no confusion here. If the application for the dual nationality fails, it looks possible that a D7 Visa could be the answer to Schengen freedom. I think I am going to regret posting this on here, probably better on an ex pat forum.

 

[syvictoria]

I think I am going to regret posting this on here, probably better on an ex pat forum.

I'm not sure that you're restricted to posting only in one place!

I'm still struggling to find evidence of the seemingly magic nature of the D7... Are you able to point me in the right direction? I still can't see how Portugal can unilaterally provide a right of freedom of movement across other states for non-EU nationals, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

 

[179580]

Yes and no,

There are 2 things in one: the visa (the right to enter and reside) and the work permit.

A residency doesn't grant FOM, so you cant live/work/study in another country. But it does grant full time residency. so you can travel to Germany and Spain for as long as you want (more than 90 days), you just can't live/work/study there.

A D7 grants unlimited access to the whole of Schengen, but it only provides a work permit to Portugal

Which is as I understand it, unlimited access to the whole of Shengen. So can we debate if living on a vessel in a Marina as a liveaboard constitutes an address or do we need to rent property? Anyone with definitive experience please?

 

[179580]

I'm not sure that you're restricted to posting only in one place!

I'm still struggling to find evidence of the seemingly magic nature of the D7... Are you able to point me in the right direction? I still can't see how Portugal can unilaterally provide a right of freedom of movement across other states for non-EU nationals, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Google, you tube, it is in the public domain.

 

[syvictoria]

Google, you tube, it is in the public domain.

People here are only trying to help...

Edited to add: I have been Googling and I can only find reference to the D7 providing visa-free travel to Schengen, nothing relating to FoM (i.e.: 365/365 and not 90/180). Visa-free travel to Schengen is what UK citizens have at present, post Brexit. There also seems to be a time limit attached to the D7, as is mentioned by another poster above.

 

[Graham376]

I'm not sure that you're restricted to posting only in one place!

I'm still struggling to find evidence of the seemingly magic nature of the D7... Are you able to point me in the right direction? I still can't see how Portugal can unilaterally provide a right of freedom of movement across other states for non-EU nationals, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I've had it in writing from EU (posted elsewhere) that holding residence in one state does not allow freedom of movement in other states over 90/180 days unless married to an EU citizen and travelling in his/her company.

 

[Graham376]

A residency doesn't grant FOM, so you cant live/work/study in another country. But it does grant full time residency. so you can travel to Germany and Spain for as long as you want (more than 90 days), you just can't live/work/study there.

No you can't. From the EU -

Regulation (EU) 2018/1806 has been amended to exempt UK nationals intending to visit the EU from the visa requirement for stays of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period.

The above means that you will be able to travel visa free in your own right for a maximum of 90 days in any 180-day period in the EU (except for Portugal where your stay is not limited since you hold residence there).

 

[st599]

I know colleagues who've retained FoM by taking out citizenship of either Ireland (via Grandparents) or Germany (you can reclaim citizenship if you can prove the actions of the Nazi party caused an ancestor to leave/lose citizenship) - but those that have taken residency are limited to 1 country.